Duncan 0:00

the scale of it, that you're just so insignificant in this place, it puts your irrelevance into perspective and then, having cleared the mind and genuinely emptied it. Then when you come back out, everything is the size it should be,

Peter 0:16

So

Speaker 0:24

Kiro and welcome to the Tramping Life, a podcast about hiking in outro New Zealand, or as we call it here, tramping. I'm jt, and in each episode I chat with people who share passion for exploring this incredible country. We'll hear about the tracks they love, the huts they return to, the lessons they've learned, and what keeps them heading back into the bush.

Jonty 0:44

My guest today is Duncan Webb, labor member of Parliament for Christchurch Central and Lifelong T. Since being elected in 2017, he's had a number of roles in government and opposition, including his chair of the environment select committee. Delighted to welcome. here at Duncan, your Honor, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. So can you give us a bit of background about where you grew up and what are some of your earliest memories of being outdoors?

Duncan 1:06

I don't think a lot of people know, but I actually grew up or was born in England and in southeast London. And so the outdoors you'd say weren't a great big thing, but, our house was next to a place called Abbey Wood, which had, as you can imagine, some woods, some forest and old ruined abbeys and so on. So my, probably my earliest memories is clamoring through that forest and climbing over old, broken down ancient buildings and things like that, which is actually a lovely memory to have, but entirely different from the outdoors in New Zealand. Much more gentle and a lot less rugged than what we used

Jonty 1:38

And then when did you make the move over to New Zealand?

Duncan 1:41

Actually as a child. My parents came over in the seventies around the time of the Commonwealth Games that were held in Christchurch. And we grew up in South Brighton, so there's plenty of outdoors there. You got the estuary, you got the sea. I joined Cubs and Scouts and those kind of things, which probably, I know they still exist, but I don't think they form quite the same part of New Zealand society that they do now. the concept of you joined Cubs and learned sort of bushcraft How to, set a tent and just things like that was probably my introduction to the idea of the outdoors in New Zealand. But really didn't head. Into tramping until I was at high school. I can remember clambering up the Craigieburn range at a school camp when I was intermediate age, we stayed at the Mount Cheeseman Ski Lodge in summer and then climbed up the top of Mount Cheeseman. And I remember actually, looking. Out across the vista having, sweated up what was essentially scree slope. Really thinking that I'd achieved something. Of course, there were 30 other 12 or 13 year olds up there with me thinking the same thing. But it was a quite unique experience for, a young pal.

Jonty 2:48

And do you remember your first multi-day tramp?

Duncan 2:50

Yeah it's very early in my last, it was when my brother who was a bit older than me and a couple of his mates were keen to do a tramp. And as I said, my parents were from the UK and we got the old top home map out. Plotted out something up in Arthur's Pass, which back in the day, this would've been the eighties by now, you could catch the train and the train would stop where you asked it to and throw your pack out onto the tracks and you'd just head off. So we headed up the Edwards Valley and we did do an alpine crossing but we were wildly under prepared. I was, I think 13 and the other guys were 14. And we were all in borrowed gear and we were carrying cans of food and we were just absolutely exhausted and to be perfectly honest, the weather turned on us. Quite nastily across the past. And it was, that freezing driving rain that simply SAPs every ounce of heat and energy that you have. It was that kind of rain. And I was a small young fella and got incredibly tired and cold. And as we were coming down the other side of this alpine pass, we basically lost our way. We had no navigation skills. We just knew we followed the valley. And I remember trying to climb down a gorge to find a track and losing my pet. It was probably 30 or 40 meters, but it felt like a hundred meters down into this ravine. It was an old pack with an exterior frame, and the frame broke whilst it fell. And as I was recovering it, I fell into the river, which was, of course an icy, freezing flooded river. And it didn't improve from there. We then proceeded down this. torrent of a river valley and then clam it up a bank hoping the track would be up there. And ultimately we did find a track. But the point I should have known I was in real trouble, was when I found a bit of ferns and I decided I was so tired, I wanted to take a risk. And so I actually just curled up. and anyone who's been in this situation or seen someone in this situation will know what's going on. I was like, I'm just gonna have a wee sleep. And so I actually curled up in the fern and said, just leave me here. I'll be fine. Or words to that effect. And to their credit my traveling companions wouldn't let me do that. Now, 14 year olds, boys don't encourage and gently lift people up and make cups of tea. They basically kicked me and jol me and lifted me until I got up and trudged on, and it was probably an hour later that we found this little. Tim hut, traditional back country hut that was cold and drafty and leaky, but it was shelter. And once we got there we were safe. But, that's probably the worst tramping experience I've ever had. And it was my first and the irony is that we didn't get out, that was only halfway out. But somehow I caught the bug and thought that was quite an experience. What was

Jonty 5:40

your

Duncan 5:40

response of your, or parents? I still to be fair, I don't think they ever quite understood firstly, how dangerous it was going to be. I think I've told my mom now, but I don't think they can really quite understand that was a situation which was on a knife edge. And had other things happened, it could easily have turned out that I didn't come out alive. but I must say, having been in that situation and gone through that stage of just feeling cold and then just losing energy and then ultimately losing the ability to make good decisions and just wanting to shut down. I have seen others in that situation or in the early stages of the situation. And having been there, I know the signs and I can see when you need to intervene I didn't realize how bad it was until, a bit later on when you start actually learning about what hypothermia looks like and what the stages are. And if you look at where I got to it was a pretty bad situation to be in.

Jonty 6:34

So I'm assuming then the second tramp went a bit better

Duncan 6:36

sure. Yeah, I'm not sure I could put my thumb on exactly what my second tramp was, but I think I certainly tramp with a lot of school friends and university friends and other kind of organized groups. I remember doing the inland Abel Tasman. Track as a kind of slightly older teenager and just loving it, and just loving being in the outdoors. And also, just putting up a tent and that's it. Wilderness camping is something which I think doesn't happen a lot, and a lot of people are always worried about, finding a heart and finding shelter. But being out there and just setting up your own shelter, particularly if it's not absolutely shitty weather is a really lovely experience because you are genuinely alone. And what have some of your other memorable tramps been? Quite a list really. Though, the Great Walks are fantastic for a reason, right? They're called Great Walks. I remember doing the Hefe as a teenager and that was just an amazing walk, the Hefe River. And the beach is just something else. And the Milford is, it's frustrating in some ways. And I think I'm lucky in that I. Did some of these walks quite some time ago. It's frustrating that they are so busy. And so one of the things that is so fantastic about the outdoors is the solitude and those great walks. You don't really get that aspect anymore, but the terrain. Is truly amazing. But equally I'm really lucky. I've got three now adult sons and all of them enjoy getting into the outdoors. And I did a hike called tan coal, Arthur's Pass, which is actually a lot of the route is the same route as my very first tramp. But then you turn right and climb up a bit higher and come across an alpine town. Fall down into a, scrubby area. and it was tough but it was just, again, very remote. And Arthur's pass in particular is not full of high traffic. there's lots of areas which are very remote and not many people get to, and it's close by. And so really lucky. There's just a long list of really treasured memories from the New Zealand outdoors.

Jonty 8:31

You had any particularly memorable wildlife encounters.

Duncan 8:34

Two strike me as particularly memorable. One is um, down the, uh, down the smaller circuit down there. And of course we'd been out every night trying to find Kiwis because everyone wants to see Kiwi. And me and one of my children were just walking along on, I think it was the final day of the hike and turned a corner, and there's just this brown kiwi just. Kinda looking at us as if to say what, get out of the way. So that was really lovely just to see a kiwi in the wild. And it wasn't frightened at all. It was just, having a bit of a fish around, but seeing what it could eat in broad daylight which I understand is relatively common down there. And the other one was the St. James Walkway, another great hike up in Lewis Pass. And it was again, my brother was with me and some of my children and we came around and up through a cops of trees. And we frightened a herd of the St. James Ponies. And so there, Must have been 30 or 40 or more of these ponies that took fright and then just stampeded away. And it was just quite an amazing experience to see these horses. It's quite unusual, horses in the wild. And off they went.

Jonty 9:47

Now you've stayed at many Hudson Camp sites. Are there any ones that particularly stand out in the memories?

Duncan 9:52

The Moler Hut at Mount Cook national Park is amazing. You basically start at. Cook Village. And then you climb, if you know the Lord of the Rings, it's like climbing up the staircase in Mortal because you just go straight up. And a lot of it is actually steps that have been cut in. And then, you get right up into high Alpine area in less than a day. It's a great place. I took my kids there as well, and all of a sudden you're there and you're looking across the valley to some absolutely majestic mountains. And It's often the case, but you could see, small avalanches and rockfalls and you get the idea that at that level up there where you know the glassier are alive and the mountains are constantly moving and you could hear throughout the whole day and the night, the sounds of the mountains reshaping themselves. It was just amazing place. To be, it was summer there was snow close to the hut, but not right under the hut. But of course in winter that would be and the engineering of the hut itself, it's an alpine hut, so it's amazing. But also, just like the Horton Valley in Arthurs path. Two and a half hours walk in, you come to the most gorgeous campsite with a old tin Hut, and it's just a beautiful area, a meadow on a river valley. Just a place of such tranquil. Would you consider yourself a hot

Jonty 11:12

bagger?

Duncan 11:13

I actually, I had to google what a hot bagger was. So here's your answer to that. Not at all. No, staying at a hut is part of the Remming experience but it has its upsides and downsides. Whilst if there's a hut there, I'll absolutely use it. Equally, I enjoy sleeping out and I don't have a list and I certainly don't tick them off. Although having said that, someone gave me a bed for the night, which I'm sure you're familiar with the book. With all of those huts around the country and looking at some of them, I'm like I really gotta go to that one 'cause that looks amazing. So maybe seeing I might have some extra time on my hands in the near future, I would come a hot bagger.

Jonty 11:49

It's the worthy goal to work towards. You've mentioned Arthur's past a number of times. Would you say that's your kind of happy place, your special place?

Duncan 11:56

Yeah, it probably was, would be I know it well. And there's just it's. Big and the terrain is real, it's significant. But also, the y Mack Valley's just so familiar and you come over the hills and, past the Craigieburn range, and then you turn the corner and it's all just so familiar. and it carries a lot of memories and the landscape's very beautiful. I was driving over only a week or so ago through the Otero Gorge in some incredibly heavy rain, and coming through there and just seeing the river thundering through that gorge and the water coming across the road and then you come over the pass and it, didn't stop immediately, but in 20 minutes drive it's entirely different. That's just an amazing piece of geography.

Jonty 12:43

Have you done much hiking overseas? And how's that compared with,

Duncan 12:46

look, I haven't done a huge amount a little bit in England, but probably the most interesting hiking I've done is in Tachei National Park, which is in Georgia the real Georgia, not the state. And so I happened to be in that part of the world and a friend was happy to come and join me, and we were climbing up and we were feeling a bit off. The energy wasn't there. And I was like, what's going on? I'm relatively fit. And then we realized, of course, we're at over 3000 meters high. Because this is the caucuses and this is what altitude does to you when you've started from sea level. But it was amazing. Entirely different terrain. It was largely sort of grass covered mountains, and. Shingle and rock. But also you come down and the, it's so old in the sense that there's been people there forever. And you came down the other side of this mountain pass into a little village called Darlow, where they have built this strange. Defensive towers everywhere, all across the country. And it was just an amazing experience. Then we stayed at the little village and, drank the local vodka and, it's just a fantastic experience. And George is an amazing country in and of itself.

Jonty 13:58

No, I'd agree with that. It's a wonderful place to visit. They do quite a bit of tramp, I believe, with your family, but also friends. So how do you find those experiences differ.

Duncan 14:06

Yeah, look, more recently I've been doing it with family. But I guess family dynamics are always family dynamics, right? But you're familiar with them. So it's always, I think it's a little bit easier actually with family because you know what to expect and you know how to get on with people, friends particularly if you go away for a long time, you can find you're spending a lot of time together. And it can get a little fractious when there's some decision to be made or whatever it may be. But look, it's great. When you think of the things you give to your children that they treasure I took my children on tramps of various sizes including the ABLE Tasman, which I recommend to anyone with four children. And it stuck for each of them. I've got three sons. They all enjoy to get outdoors to varying degrees. And they'll all, believe it or not, still come with me. That's such treasure.

Jonty 14:56

How did you find the point at which they're faster than you are?

Duncan 14:59

Look, I'm not gonna name any names, but they're not all faster than me. But we recently, attempted unsuccessfully, the five passes down at Mount Aspiring National Park. And it was, the weather had been rough a few weeks before, and to be perfectly honest we weren't all quite fit enough, probably me included. But I'm middle of the pack when it comes to me and my children.

Jonty 15:20

So how many passes did you cross, or at what point did you make the decision to abandon?

Duncan 15:25

we came up the burn and it took us two days to get to the rock shelter at the bottom. From the Lake Sylvan carpark, I think it starts at and they'd been pretty long days 'cause the storm had pretty much made the track impassable in part. So there were sections where you'd be doing, a hundred meters and 30 minutes which was really quite draining. And if you know the area that. The bush is incredibly thick, so we actually made the decision there to not proceed. Further, but we did a day walk from there up to the top of the first pass. So I'm gonna go back because I understand that was the shitty bit of the hike. And that the real fantastic bits happened after that. But no, we just had a few injury niggles and things like that. And as you said earlier, a bit of age and wisdom lets you know that it's probably everyone's gonna be happier. There was some disappointment, but everyone's gonna be happier in the long run and safer. If at that point, we turned around, but the hike up to the lake at the top of the pass is amazing, and the walk up was great and there was snow on the top and it was a great day out as well.

Jonty 16:34

So I think you've described before how you find tramping is almost meditative, and I guess having quite a high pressure job as an MP at the moment you must look forward to those opportunities to get. Off the grid. I'm assuming when you're off the grid, you're off the grid?

Duncan 16:47

Yeah. No, I actually pack my phone, but largely for the use of the camera and I switch it off. It's really important and it just, the both kind of the physical aspect of it that you're focusing in on, just getting places and you know how to. Obstacle or whatever it might be. But also the problems are the size they should be and the important things are the size they should be.

Jonty 17:07

How challenging have you found it? particularly, when in government to make that time to do those trips?

Duncan 17:12

Yeah, it is hard. And that's, when I said that I was gonna retire from politics, one of the things I said was, I want to do more in the outdoors and do the things I love tramping generally, over summer politics kinda shuts down from just before Christmas till you know about now. So that does give you a window, but it's only one window. And of course there's other things you want to do as well traveling's good, but I don't wanna do that every time I get a week off or, get three days off at Easter or whatever. There's family and friends and other things you wanna do. So I've gone away once a year. But I'd like to do it a lot more. It's hard to,

Jonty 17:47

I find it hard to maintain the fitness levels 'cause you can do the exercise, but to go tramping with a pack for multi days is in the sort of next level up and can be quite hard. If you injured it once or twice a year, it's intrinsically harder.

Duncan 17:58

I absolutely agree. And five passes, obviously I knew it was gonna be challenging and I, so I had tried to get my fitness up, but, you, you do, you put a relatively large pack on and you head into some terrain and we were doing I think Thursday walk 10 hours. That's a lot of calories you're burning and just a lot of muscle work. And yeah I think you're absolutely right. So hopefully I'll be able to, get a bit more tramp bit and also the parliamentary lifestyle, which is quite disjointed. You're in parliament one week, then you're not, and it's three days here, and then you're off to Auckland for an event or whatever. It's actually quite hard to look after your physical wellbeing.

Jonty 18:34

It must be a thing that new mps you put on five kgs within the first six months or something.

Duncan 18:38

I think that's an underestimate.

Jonty 18:40

While you're in government, you chaired the Environment Select Committee, and you helped oversee the zero carbon amendment bill. So how do you think your experiences tramping and be outdoors have influenced your approach to environmental policy and climate change?

Duncan 18:52

I'm not sure there's a direct correlation there. In terms of environmental policy, I guess there's two ways to value. The great outdoors, if you like one is from the city and thinking it's nice to know it's there which is what many New Zealanders do. And it's real. I'm not saying that it's not real. It is, people value it because they think it's a valuable thing in and of itself, even though they don't. Necessarily have firsthand experience of it. And then the other way is like when you actually embed yourself in it and you've been there and you understand it's not just intellectually, but emotionally understand it's magnificence. You're gonna be Well, A lot more passionate about it. So in terms of conservation, we desperately need to protect our wild and open spaces. pests, introduced species of all kinds are a massive problem in the outdoors. down in Mount sparring, I was surprised how little bird loaf. There appeared to be because it's such a dense forest and it's a place where birds should be thriving. I can only assume that's part of the problem rats and all kinds of introduced species down there. In terms of climate change when I reflect on what. I have participated in Parliament. the legislation we passed through in that parliament is the centerpiece of our response to addressing climate change. And whilst it's not the only answer, it's only part of the picture. I'm pretty proud of having been, chair of that committee and got that peace of legislation, which. Almost all parties supported. Certainly the National Party supported it as well. That was really important to have a cross party piece of legislation. So was there a direct correlation? Possibly not, but certainly. I understand the importance of protecting what is a truly unique environmental treasure.

Jonty 20:54

So what role do you think leaders and I guess policy makers have in terms of supporting our outdoor culture from tracks to kind of biodiversity.

Duncan 21:02

Yeah, look, I think I'm gonna do what politicians do and take that and turn it into something else, which is to talk about hunting a little bit. Because part of the environmental policy at the moment one of the kind of friction areas in environmental policy is hunting. And because as I was south recently we came, walking across one of the grassy flats and another Tramper had just come up behind us and he pointed out across the way that there was a deer. And we both. Parties were carrying rifles. And it was quite interesting 'cause my son was carrying the rifle and I was like if you want, there you go. It's it's in range. And, across the other side of the river. And the other guy was like no don't shoot it. It's a white tail. And so there was, the interesting thing about that was, 'cause we had a short conversation was that there were, we, there was two quite different approaches to that animal. I looked at it and I saw there's a pest. Whereas he thought there's a game species and there's lots of red deer, but not many white tails. So let's leave the white tail and wait for a red deer. Now I think there's a really important conversation to have around. These kind of species that we hunt. Whether it be tar and I remember, I don't know if you followed it, but what became called Tarin when Eugeni sage was trying to reduce the tar herd in the high alpine country. There are some very strong feelings, and it is a political question, we desperately need to strike a balance which is acceptable to New Zealand, but which preserves and actually improves our, outdoor natural spaces, our forests and our high alpine meadows and so on and so forth. cause at the moment we haven't struck that balance. And there are some places where there are too many deer and tar and shammy. And there are other places where there, there's not too many, but we do need to have a conversation about that.

Jonty 23:00

Agreed. And I think that's the challenge is like everything in politics, things are getting more extreme in terms of the views on either side and more polarized and it's extended to the conservation biodiversity kind of debate as well.

Duncan 23:11

Yeah, I think there's lot to be learned by the way in which the TA. Heard size question was managed or mismanaged because it became a kind of catch cry. Eugeni Sage is a very thoughtful politician. she was not suggesting for a moment. That the Tahu be eliminated, but it got picked up and used as a kind of political football to attack her with. And at the end of the day, she had to back away from it. if you look at what TA do, there's been some good work in fencing off some areas where TAR exists and showing what an alpine area looks like after a few years. It isn't being browsed by tar. And it's a real worry. Having said that, tar also are a magnificent species, and I understand they're endangered in their original habitat.

Jonty 24:03

I do wonder how much of that debate was the fact it was a female green party mp. If it been a male national MP having a similar debate, whether it would've been any different.

Duncan 24:13

And obviously as you might have picked up, I've got a firearms license and, I'm not a big hunter, but I have been hunting and had a conversation as someone who hunts, it's a different conversation. But you're right, the optics of it and that whole idea that because it's a green MP and a woman, they don't understand or they can't at least engage in a conversation that respects that there is a hunting culture in New Zealand. I think that's one of the unfortunate things about politics, the perceptions and biases that people bring.

Jonty 24:43

So how do you decide whether you're gonna do a tramping trip or a hunting trip, or how do you balance those interests?

Duncan 24:48

Look, it would be an overreach to say I'm a hunter. I would probably go on a tramp and carry a rifle rather than go specifically to. It's about fitting it in and it's about where you wanna go.

Jonty 25:00

Just to drill a bit on this, it's interest 'cause hunters and TERs. They probably got like 95% of common interests, but they've got 5%, which is an issue. And it's interesting how divergent they seem as community groups and yet they have so much in common in terms of the activities they do

Duncan 25:15

look. It's really interesting I went shopping and I went into two stores that were next to each other in Christchurch. One is hunting and fishing. And one is Ack, right? Both good stores. And the interesting thing to me was the feel of it was entirely different in terms of to be perfectly honest, in terms of. Ordinary salt of the earth. New Zealanders hunting and fishing was packed full of it, right? That was just people who were like buying their fishing rods and checking this and getting their sleeping bags and getting their chili bins and all sorts of things like that. Whereas biac had a much more exclusive feel to it, right? Buying your Alpine gear and your. $600 puffer jackets and stuff like that. I'm a labor party politician. We've come from a working class background. I think there is a sense there around some the hunting and fishing being much more for the people and farming efficient generally, not just the store. That's a really interesting conversation to have, right? How do we make all of the outdoors. Fought really for everyone.

Jonty 26:21

Agreed. I think FMC federated, MAD Clubs have tried to do some things in terms of including, they've got canning and they've got paragliding and there's caving and there's all this kind of subset or sub genres of outdoor activities and how you can have a collected voice representing the outdoors because there's always trade offs between what each of these little individual groups will want and how do you get a collective kind of view.

Duncan 26:45

It is. The thing is it can be, and certainly for me it was a really low cost way to do something that's truly amazing. 'cause a lot of what you can do, you don't need extensive equipment or you need a sleeping bag and you need a tent and a few bits and pieces. But if you're not gonna be, going to high alpine areas, it's incredibly accessible and really low cost. And I think that's one of the things we need to let people know.

Jonty 27:09

As you mentioned, you are stepping down from Parliament at the end of this term. How much of that was a kind of push versus pull of the attraction of not being an MP in terms of the activities you can do versus I guess the political climate and how much that's influenced your decision?

Duncan 27:22

Just for clarity, I was not pushed,

Jonty 27:24

I wasn't suggesting specifically, but I was thinking in terms of, the being MP is quite a hard job and it's yeah, I guess the things that are challenging about it versus things you wanna do outside.

Duncan 27:34

Yeah, no, I get the question and it's a really good question. I'm not sure. Push and pull is quite the way to express it. I think this job is so important that you need people who are absolutely committed and passionate about it. And I am passionate about it. I'm into my ninth year and I've been passionate the entire time and I've put everything into it. I'm not sure I could do that for three more years. And that's really what it's about. It's about saying, look, if you are not gonna be a hundred percent this job is too important just to warm a seat, get out and let someone else in who is going to bring the energy that's required to it, in terms of not being. Able to commit for another three years. The sense of missing out not being able to do some of those things is probably part of it. That, Easter rolls round and, back in the day it would've. Been doing, hiking or maybe sailing or whatever, something in the outdoors that I knew I couldn't do because I had this event to go to and this job to do and so on and so forth. But it really is just about saying this job, it is a fantastic job and I've been some places and done some things that. You can only do in a job like this. But equally there's some other things I wanna do as well.

Jonty 28:51

So on that, what's on your tramping bucket list

Duncan 28:54

it is a long list, right? I'm keen to think about the dusky track, which looks like a really challenging track. But I think, as we said before, I probably need to work up. So that I've only done a very short hike in the tarot Rus. And that's an area which looks to me as a pretty good, this will be so insulting to the Tarot Ru Tramping Club, but it looks to be a pretty good training ground for proper tracks. But no I'm keen to do some stuff there. And of course back to the five passes, I've gotta go and finish that off.

Peter 29:25

So

Speaker 29:28

Thank you so much for listening to the Tramping life. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please follow the podcast in whatever app you use. Tell a friend about it and consider leaving a rating or a review. It really helps more people discover the show. you have any questions or feedback, I'd love to hear from you. Drop me an email at the tramping life, one word@gmail.com.