Robin 0:00

going up to Southwest Harbor Hut, I made a minor mistake of thinking that a sea line was a boulder and sort on it. What I'd know now is that Sea Lion don't like being stood on. It was this like, keystone call. It was just so funny. Three Dockey roaring down the hill, shouting and screaming and sea lion racing after. And I just couldn't move. I was just so busy laughing.

Peter 0:19

So

Speaker 0:26

Kiro and welcome to the Tramping Life, a podcast about hiking in outro New Zealand, or as we call it here, tramping. I'm jt, and in each episode I chat with people who share passion for exploring this incredible country. We'll hear about the tracks they love, the huts they return to, the lessons they've learned, and what keeps them heading back into the bush.

Jonty 0:46

my guest today is Robin McNeil, a legend in advocacy for New Zealand Outdoors, including two stints as president of FMC Federated Mountain Clubs, and author with much loved Uncle Jack's cookery column in FMC Backcountry, as well as many other things that I'm sure we'll touch upon throughout the interview. So I'm delighted to welcome him to the podcast Where did you grow up and what are your earliest memories of being outdoors?

Robin 1:09

Yeah. So contrary to everyone in Inva Cargo, who you think, I'm a local with a name like McNeil, actually grew up in pap Kra in South Aland, and left there the day before it became a city way back in the seventies. I grew up there uh, the stint in, in England for a year where I discovered mountains of Weber. But my early life was. Uh, Walk with yachts and sand and scrambling around rocks as a young kid. When I, my engineering degree, I moved to, actually my last year at school was in Christchurch. Somewhat by accident. Ended up in N Cargo and been away a few times, but I live here ever since and not moving away.

Jonty 1:43

So do you remember your first tramp and what do you remember?

Robin 1:46

Yeah, I do actually. And would've been about 1973. I would've been in the fourth form, My father was teaching at Ardmore Teachers College and we went for reconnaissance in the Comans with another of the lectures at the training college who's turned out be father of a well known designer actually. And I mainly remember river streams, getting my feet wet and hot and heavy packs. It wasn't until I moved to Christchurch my last year at school that I discovered really that the Southern Alps and that was decided real mountains and joined the Canterbury University Champion Club and after that the hills. Became a central part of my life really.

Jonty 2:22

I've heard from a few guests that the first attempt at Tramp wasn't entirely successful or it wasn't something that they loved straight away and they persevered

Robin 2:29

So actually my first ones, they weren't too miserable or anything, but I know I was heavy and young shoulders extra trap. My first major tramp with the Canterbury University Tramping Club, a brand new boots. We went up the world of force and snow was falling on the car as we got out of it. And, I remember after about day three we're up the top of an unknown river and what's unknown coal. And anyway, I could get my feet in the boots every morning was to shake the ice outta my socks. Put my boots on, or I'll try and DeFreeze them a wee bit and then jump in a puddle. So the ice cold water, it stopped some amazing burning pain in my heels. And yeah, that was, it was a bit miserable. I learned a lot. Yeah. But I couldn't go tramming for another four months after that. I'd wear jams all through winter because I couldn't put anything on my heels.

Jonty 3:09

So you've been tramping for, kind of 50 odd years now. So how has the tramping culture kind of changed since when you started compared to now?

Robin 3:16

The gear has got so much better. I started off with a secondhand mountain mule tramping pack, and it was heavy before he even started with it, and food was terrible. I had a tramping mate who didn't need any money. He'd run out of university grants and loans and everything. We just slipped off lentils and rice and cheese, three days of lentils and rice, one day of macaroni cheese and yeah, it wasn't so flash, but we got used to it. But we still had it pretty easy. I remember when I was talking to Dick Ferris was in the Southland section of the New Zealand Alpine Club exploring fuel in the 1930s. And he said the big breakthrough was plastic bags. And for the first time, you could keep things dry. You could keep your mattress dry, you could keep your clothes dry. I mean there's least a lot less tourists back then. Gravel roads were, around but really what we tend to forget is. cars were really expensive and to run them was reasonably unaffordable. So Tramping Clubs really had their ho day because their big attraction really was they had a Tramping Club bus or a Tramping club truck. And while everyone in the bank and K all went to the same place, but Southland Tramping Club, for example, you've got pile 30 people in the back of the old van. And after the root, there was no tourists. So we had the root ourselves and yeah, it was a great way to make friends in the back of the bus.

Jonty 4:27

Do you remember whether the tracks, during the forestry era were in a better condition or we think the tracks are better now

Robin 4:33

mid to late seventies, early eighties, 1980 when I was at university. We'd stay clear of national parks whenever we could because. In the forestry areas, there were, the orange huts. There were good tracks, and in the huts there was always food, little sign on saying, if you eat any of this, please let the conservator know so it can be replaced. And there's always fune pods and things. Rice and bread and flour, always flour. And then there was a camper and you could cook it up make and bread and things. And it was all free. You know that you generally had the huts to yourself and was a pile of firewood in a and a sharp ax, and you went over the border onto, Westland National Park or something and sorry, Dave hen but had pay $2 50 for a hu, had no, no decent fireplace. There was no wood anyway, you didn't which ax and. So basically, it was cheaper and better. So stay in forestry, outside of the national park going to the cook area, climbing, you didn't get a choice and we rather begrudge paying that. But on the other hand, you got free ke scenes, so you paid for through the fees. You could have some amazingly cook up. I remember peas and saddle, making pizza out of leftover food and plenty of kerosene to cook it on. So use those sorts of things. But there's a few million more people in New Zealand now, and quite a few of them. Happily you're going tramping, but that, success is its own worst enemy really.

Jonty 5:54

From a wildlife perspective?

Robin 5:56

It's tragic what's happened. In the university days, peers are a rip menace. it's comedy when it happens to someone else and tragedy and what happens dear, and it's your, that gets chewed up then it's the real tragedy. But, just watching spectacular displays of peers and hand gliding up chimneys and doing acrobatics and teasing each other and teasing us. It wasn't unusual to see, half a dozen or more dozen And now you're lucky to see one or two. The wildlife's taken a real hammering. I mean, There is some good news, but conservation is all about winning the battles and losing the war. Spent some really good 10 80 work done in tutu forest. I know the scientist. It took them six weeks, I think, to find a hundred birds and over 90% of them were male. After the third, it took, I think, six days to get hundred birds, and it was 50 50 male, female. Mom wasn't getting head chewed off on the, on the, on the nest. So we thought that was pretty good. But then if you go back to that area, like orchestra, we did a survey for New Zealand post office and P point to, He describes, and this is 1896 he describes, oh, they went out of birds to shoot and eat after they came east from Big River. But then in, a few paragraphs on, he says, oh, they got the Yowl Valley. So Tori didn't exist then. This is, remember he is talking about, there were no birds left, but he sees all up in the side valleys there was tinkling of bellbirds. And the tinkling came down as the sun came down. And then finally, y our valley was full of sun. And there's waves of tinkling of going up and down the valley really loud tinkling as the bellbirds were singing. One bellbird now you think you, Christmas glassy is the same. We were aware of Choal recession big time in the late 1970s. We weren't really aware what was causing it. But we were certainly aware, and humans have done a pretty good job of wrecking the planet. I think they've done a get 80 outta 10 for that

Jonty 7:42

You've been on so many tramps over many decades. Are there any ones that particularly stand out, whether for good or bad reasons.

Robin 7:49

Oh yeah. The last one always, but there's a fews that probably would've been milestones on the way. I remember my second year at university some friends. We didn't know what we were doing and we found some saxes and went up the yac and they did a, basically did a traverse amount rollon without crampons and without a rope. And yeah, it was pretty memorable. No one died. We we got back just in time to go university. But we learned a lot and I discovered I really love climbing mountains. Even though they frighten me silly, I really don't like heights. And then a year later I led this trip bury University, championing Club up the Green Road, Douglas down the Land Star and, I didn't know anything about Moyer's Guide, didn't know anything about reading bas I'd never really dreamt on the west coast of four And let's just say we got the rope out every day and we learned a lot and we were really lucky we didn't kill ourselves and the weather was fine nearly until we gotta the very end down the SBO and we couldn't come out. It's okay. So staffed for a few days and finally came out feeling very hungry. Yeah down there to OAU and got a humongous great feed from the forestry colors at the OAU base that was there. I think another one that I old special was when I took my wife Sue we taken three of us went up and cleared out and over, Marshall passed and down the Clinton. In 1988, and I think Sue was the first woman over Marshall Pass. And it's funny how memories, disappear and I remember telling people, oh no, it was pretty straightforward past itself. But getting down from Lake Iceberg, we just, I just paced out, Mo Guide had a very brief description and said, oh, only feasible route is a hundred meters to the right of the waterfall. So I paced out a hundred meters and this is where we go and then we went and yeah, it was pretty interesting. What doesn't kill your makes once that makes you stronger, but certainly doesn't stop you.

Jonty 9:32

I was gonna ask, what's the closest you've come to disaster?

Robin 9:35

Oh, and there's too many of those.

Jonty 9:37

Little avalanches, rock falls, drownings starving.

Robin 9:41

Probably actually the biggest disaster I almost had was when we got out to supper cove once and I caught a big heart booker and I felt it was time to boil up for she soup and pretty thoroughly beaten up on my wife actually. So that was pretty life threatening. Yeah. And she still reminds me of you not to do fish suit and the people on that trip sort have also still laugh about that effort. Yeah. Only minor physically, but pretty solid verbally and still get reminded, 40 years later. Yeah, that would probably the most scarring effort I've had.

Jonty 10:10

And supper cove's, not somewhere you really wanna be sick. It's pretty remote.

Robin 10:14

But the fish head soup is fine. It was great and it just looked ghastly, the eyes and things and the belly staring up at she wasn't gonna eat that. And she thought it was revolting that I was gonna eat it and the heart out. Yeah. I say my friendships went a bit thin that day, but that

Jonty 10:28

evening, but things come right. Still married. Have you had any particularly memorable wildlife encounters?

Robin 10:33

We talked about kids yeah. What happening down on Campbell Island once with some dock staff and one of them, going up to Southwest Harbor Hut, I made a minor mistake of thinking that a sea line was a boulder and sort on it. What I'd know now is that Sea Lion don't like being stood on. I was, we way behind down the hill and it was this like, keystone call. It was just so funny. Three Dockey roaring down the hill, shouting and screaming and sea lion racing after. And I just couldn't move. I was just so busy laughing. You just have to be faster than the sliced person in the party in those sorts of instances.

Jonty 11:06

And then do you have any particularly favorite huts or camping spots that you return to or have fond memories of?

Robin 11:11

I've had a lot to do with Homer Hut through the Southland section of the New Zealand Alpine Club and working bees and things on that. And it's what I'm busy for similar reasons. We built that hut back in 1989 south and Tramping Club, and we had a friend who died up in that area. And that was a joint south and section and south and Tramping club. And it's a nice little hut. It was the first design in that way. Bivy rocks. I prefer to be honest I'm not a huge enthusiast of hunts, even though I set up the back country trust effectively help get that started with Rob Brown and Kevin O'Connor really did most of the work. I just sold it, but there's a bivy up the North branch to the root burn. And mo guide, it's called Hobbs Bivy and it's actually, Hobbs is a sort of an old industry for Robin, but I felt that was a bit presumptuous and just found a by accident and said, oh look, there's lots of bivy rocks here when it started rain. Look, there's one over there, but actually I've never found another one in that valley. It's a great little spot actually like. Yeah, bivy rocks have, by far, it's nothing better than, turners or probably Phils B actually is the, is the head of Lake Mora that's, that's gotta be one of the ultimate b Many people get to that. It's not hard to get to, it's just effort

Jonty 12:15

so of all the places you've tramped, what's, got a special place in your heart?

Robin 12:20

One of the problems, of course, living in Southland, there's just so many places that are on the back doorstep. All of f all of you know, which is one of my favorite areas, to be honest. All of the Air Mountains, there's firing national parks not far away. Stuart Islands not far away, so you're a bit spoiled, but I think the difference between hunters and trampers is hunters tend to get to know an area really well, and they know every tree by name and have them know the deer by name as well. And they decide which one they're gonna love so much. I'll shoot it. But trampers tend to be a bit more touristy, house open and, walking at the scenery and taking it all. It's no shortage of scenery. For me I like to go exploring more than. Revisit the same place.

Jonty 12:58

You are often known for for Uncle Jacko. So what's the origin story of the Uncle Jack's cookery corner?

Robin 13:04

Yeah, there is no uncle, there is no jacko, and it's not a corner. It's nothing to do with cookery. About 1995, I was talking to Arnold Heney, who is a genuine legend. I was, and he was editing the FMC bulletin. Now back country. I thought it'd be useful to have an area where we could discuss ideas and share ideas and s could write in. So play my side by a little bit. Then all the Trumpers in New Zealand would write the rest of it. It doesn't quite work like that. And also there's a bit of the FMC bulletin was getting pretty heavy hard to read, and I felt needed a bit of leavening. So that was where it came from. Jacko used to be in the forestry jargon. Used to be either a possum or a possum. That's where the jacko comes from. Uncle, because was I was agony. Cookery 'cause they had nothing to do with cookery and corner. And actually we barricaded between whether it was a corner or a column. And I still don't know. Never remember to see what I wrote last time. But it's pretty lightweight, fluff really. And I know Robbie Burton once said, oh, how about. Putting it all together. And after about two weeks, over Christmas holidays, once I realized that was pretty pointless. What no one knew was after I wrote the. First column, I think. I got a job with International Telecommunications Union, part of the UN to build the whole telecom type thing up in Lau. And so next two years I was actually living in Samara, in Lau and I hadn't in Lau itself I didn't have the telephone working 'cause there wasn't one. That's why I was there and let alone the internet. And so I had to put on a floppy disc and get it, my wife to go out to the boat when it turned up every six weeks and give it to someone to give it to someone who could get it to New Zealand, could give it to my brother, who could give it to Arnold. And yeah, it was a bit of a mission but finally missed one, one edition in that time. So it was I don't think the came and actually I have to say they living on TOLA for a year and a half. I was basically living in IA where I got a, I wouldn't say I understand Polynesian culture, but it gave me a lot of insight, which I think has helped me deal with um, Tahu and because I realize there are other ways of looking at things. Maybe I don't understand it, but at least I can appreciate it. For me, the realization was that I used to set afternoons, I just put my fins on, go out to the beach, place is tiny, and go out in the lagoon, which was 32 degrees for a couple of hours looking at the fish. And I'd come back and the locals would say did you catch much? And I was just looking, there was being a tourist and that was just really being, really propagate. This was a subsistence environment and I wasn't doing my bit for my family, let alone for the village. I think we can see this in, Maori don't go tramping a lot. It's really rare, but they'll go hunting and I think it's that different mindset. There's a national park and museum for the, to, keep it pristine and hopefully you get all the kakapo back or is it a place where if we can work hard enough, we can actually start. Harvesting kakapo. Again, that's not gonna be in any of our lifetime, but, maybe in a few hundred years time there will be enough kakapo those are things that, you've gotta think about. When burnt down the huts and I said why didn't you put the new huts in, before you burnt them down. And they said, we can't, we've been kicked out of these huts. They're in places that we didn't want them in the first place. And they're not places we could ever use. There's too much hurt when they've gone. Yeah, we can. We can think about it, then we'll have a hooey on the site and feel what's right. So that's a whole different way of, and I don't fully understand that, and I, no way I can I, I come from that culture, but I can appreciate that's where they're coming from. And you can't have a doc planner in Wellington who thinks that's, just saying Kira in the front of your email is not the same thing as actually. Understanding pain from something, that your ancestors might have felt. And when I can see where it comes from. I know it's real

Jonty 16:51

Have you kept in touch with what's going on in that late work around kind of area and the issues?

Robin 16:56

Not closely. In FMC, we've got me Mentos, the president and I know Tam Kruger was a bit aggrieved last time I went up, and I didn't bring a bucket of muttonbird with me because um, lot who um, spent time in, in buff and um, freezing works and fishing boats and things, and. They seem to have a very soft spot for South, which is really nice. So we get on really well and I think we've got a bit of rapport they're visionary and so they're gonna have all sorts of struggles in the vision around your own time is a hard job. And where they've taken to um, or trying to take, so I think is really impressive. The fact, they had the, it started off as a a natural person that was pretty brave. And then they said, oh. Or never thought of having agenda before. And then the management plan well, meaning what man's brave enough to write a management plan for his wife and what they wrote effectively to Kawa, to her aware was a personality for, to her, who would her friends be? How would she like her friends? Would she liked to friends? And suddenly, the doc planners and other planners are sweet nuts. This is not how they think at all. It's not as if doc's done a great job when it was a national partner for 40 years, they had it you can't do much worse. So give it a go. That's worst case position and best case it'll be fantastic.

Jonty 18:11

The segue into your time as FMC President, which you held twice,

Robin 18:15

The first time I didn't really want it, but the incumbent president got a job with Doc, which was a severe conflict of interest. And so it was an appointment process and everyone else on the executive. A really good excuses not to be the president or had been the president didn't wanna do it again. And so I felt morally bound to be the president. Pressure put on me. But I do have a strong belief that if you have a position of power you've gotta use it. And, not on your own, but you've gotta be able to read everyone else. And the lines I try to take FMC on we'd lost touch. I felt a little bit with Wellington. And so early on I talk to Nick Smith. was the Minister of Conservation and Ruth Dyson, who was the labor because has looked at me very neary at first seeing everyone hates their store because they, well actually I go hunting from time to time and here's the new safety in the mountains. I've just finished riding and there's a, their crossing a river and there the firearms code. At which point we all became good friends and we've always got on pretty well since, and, you know, um, people, understanding and knowing there's more commonality than you you don't agree with. So that was that. So I did rebuild the relationship with Dear Stalkers certainly with government and doc And we fought a few battles. We fought the monorail, the M sound, there was the tunnel to the M sound. And those sorts of things are fantastically good. If you're having a good style that you know you're in the right and you know you can win. It's a good way to get people to recognize they're getting value for money. So those were all quite, it was quite successful I think and I think FMC ran pretty well. Second time I really did not want to be president at all, but I thought FMC had lost its way. But they'd become rather staunch, conservation minded and intolerant and was certainly, I felt, was sitting in the direction of Neocolonialism and this was not good. And so I got nominated to be president and I think I got something like 78 to 80% of the votes. And so that gave me the confidence that I, it wasn't just me barking up the wrong tree. Most New Zealanders did bank what? By more liberal approach and, and Reconciliatory approach and not take court. Go to the law all the time or yeah, legally beat people up and a hard jacket to be honest. And it was very unpleasant. But FMCs in a fantastic position. Now. We've got a wonderful executive doing really progressive stuff. Megan's doing a great job. I love our huts campaign. All those things can start to flourish again. Oh, that was the other thing. the Outdoors Recreation Consortium got set up which later became the Back Country Trust and I think the backcountry trust has been a real success story. So yeah, I feel quite proud of that.

Jonty 20:55

Now you wrote safety in the mountains. What were some of the key safety myths I guess you encountered and how trumpet could address them?

Robin 21:03

It's very much one size does not fit all. The Safety Council. said, here's one way to cross a river. The technique that they promote you try doing that on a really lumpy river, big boulders in it, good luck. It's not gonna work. if you've got a decent party, a log method that. It's fantastic. EK describes it back in the 1870s, 1860s. He called it a Maori technique, and they cross a river by chopping down a tree when it hangs onto it and the other waves can break over the shoulders of the guy upstream, and the guy at the downstream is better getting his shins. We, and you know, there's, that board is all the way down the, the log and, and you can support everyone. In the front of safety in the mountains. says basically, this is a binding on fools and a guideline. And there's a bit of the sign the back saying, apply match here in case of emergencies. The joke being, you can't actually burn the paper, One of two things, but generally a combination has to happen. Either you're bloody unlucky, and by that I mean you're really unlucky. You're the guy. Just having your lunch on top of that kids say when the falls off, or you three johns so the night it blows away. Or you at like Daniels when the pill falls down on top of the heart or you try really hard because, the people who do the um, crossing people do the re

Jonty 22:17

Hardly any of them die, hardly any. You can improve your odds

Robin 22:20

of dying by having the wrong gear. and pushing your luck. It might be really unpleasant, but generally you just don't sleep. From my experience every night out in the rain with no gear in a storm.

Jonty 22:30

Is it better to take action or often it's better to not take action and just wait out if you're in a position to do that can often be the safest thing to do.

Robin 22:38

There's some things that, you know if you thought crossing the road you had a 50% chance of surviving, you'd certainly wait for the lights change, wouldn't you? it's like that if the river's got boulders knocking down it. You don't wanna read The Safety Council manual says, Choose a safe crossing point. What's safe crossing point? Until you know what an unsafe one is, you need experience. You need judgment and judgment. What you have just after you've had experience that needs that judgment. And I don't know the way around that. And you don't know the power of a river until you've realize, one cubic meter of water is a ton and if it's moving. 10 kilometers an hour, that's a lot of energy and it's gonna take you somewhere sometimes you just have to learn by doing and make sure that when you, you burn your fingers rather than your whole hand.

Jonty 23:16

What trips do you still have to do or ones you wanna repeat?

Robin 23:19

I don't really have a bucket list. I'm pretty opportunist. I've got some good friends and Gary Nixon and Jeff Spearpoint. We do a trip each year and that's always very problematic. They've been everywhere in between them. They've been everywhere twice sort of thing. And so we spent half that time arguing we were gonna go and sometimes we halfway like hero busy trying to work out which side of the, like we're gonna get off I've never climbed a few and the weather always got in the way. Um. It's gotta be. Right. I, I don't wanna do as a rock climb, and I'm sort of a bit heartbroken that late some of these days it's rock summer, I just find that app. So wouldn't mind climbing that.

Peter 24:02

So

Speaker 24:05

Thank you so much for listening to the Tramping life. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please follow the podcast in whatever app you use. Tell a friend about it and consider leaving a rating or a review. It really helps more people discover the show. you have any questions or feedback, I'd love to hear from you. Drop me an email at the tramping life, one word@gmail.com.