David 0:00

You've got gorgeous, red Beach, silver Beach canopy. a lovely understory crown fern or prickly shield fern, but there's nothing in between. That is a really hard thing for people to get their mind around. 'cause the forest looks beautiful. But it's missing the in-between layer. And that in between layer is really important 'cause it provides food for our birds.

Peter 0:17

So

Speaker 0:25

Kiro and welcome to the Tramping Life, a podcast about hiking in outro New Zealand, or as we call it here, tramping. I'm jt, and in each episode I chat with people who share passion for exploring this incredible country. We'll hear about the tracks they love, the huts they return to, the lessons they've learned, and what keeps them heading back into the bush.

Jonty 0:45

My guest today is David Norton, emeritus Professor of Ecology at the University of Canterbury, a leading museum botanist his work on Native Forest biodiversity and ecological restoration has shaped conservation practice across ura. I'm delighted to welcome him to the podcast. Kira,

David 1:01

Kira. Thank you for having me.

Jonty 1:03

When did you first experience the outdoors?

David 1:06

My father took me into the hills a couple of times, but really secondary school. We started rock climbing on the Port Hills and Arthur's pass through the Canterbury Mountaineering Club. I quite fondly recall, going up in the old rail car to Arthur's pass for the weekend and climbing things like Leston and Phipps and temple and the different peaks around there at that stage. So sixth form, seventh form at school. So those would've been my formative years for sure.

Jonty 1:29

And do you remember your first multi-day tramp?

David 1:32

I think we did Minga Deception in the fifth form at school. That might've been the first one, and about the same time, maybe the sixth form we did a trip over Rolleston down to Yac Coal and back out again.

Jonty 1:44

Were you tempted by climbing or were you stuck with the tramping?

David 1:47

very much interested in climbing. I think that's what got me motivated. my focus and the people I went to the hills with was very much around, Arthur's Pass, Mount Rollon, Philistine, those mountains around there. We went further afield on some trips. I remember doing a really cool trip up the. Again, real CMC stomping ground type territory, going up and climbing Malcolm Peak and Mount Nicholson at the head of the, and that would've been in my last year at school, I think seven forms. So yeah, very much a focus on climbing. and then when we weren't in the mountains, we'd go rock climbing on the Portos. That was a big, amount of our time was spent up there.

Jonty 2:21

What were some of the most challenging tramps you've done, whether kind of physically, mentally, or logistically.

David 2:28

I did a lot of climbing, early on. And then I got very involved with research and a lot of my time in the hills was through my research. But I think in the last 10 years with my wife, Joe, we've done some amazing trips and probably, know some of the highlights have been in the last year or two, which is pretty awesome to be able to say that at, in my sixties now. One trip we did last summer, which has gotta be a real highlight there were several last summer actually, but one of them was up to foa and then we went up to calorie Saddle into the head of the Tarra and then up to Tarra Saddle, then over MCFE and back down the prices range. And that was a really awesome trip.

Jonty 3:01

Have you ever come close to activating A PLB or actually activated one?

David 3:05

No, never activated one and never really come close. I guess particularly in recent years now being semi-retired, we are able to. choose our weather and we haven't really been caught out. and look, weather forecasting is so good now, and I'll go back to that trip up. the price range. We had a 10 day forecast. It was a 10 day trip and the rain came exactly when the 10 day forecast set it would over those 10 days. So we've been able to plan our trips around that and we haven't had to pull the PLB. So it's been great here, but always take it.

Jonty 3:33

Now you live, I understand at Lake Hart.

David 3:35

That's right. And we moved here from Christchurch. So when I retired from the university back in, 2022, I think we'd actually bought a place here before that and built a house here. we came here deliberately because we love South Westland, that's our first love. And, hardware's great. 'cause if it's Northwestern like it is at the moment, you can go on the local hills around here, and if it's fine on the coast, it's only an hour, hour and a half. So it's right there on our doorstep.

Jonty 3:57

Do you have any favorite campsites or huts?

David 4:00

In terms of favorite campsites, look anywhere in South Westland up high, above Bush line. Looking out across, I remember one campsite last summer, we went up the Blue River, onto the main divide and then headed, south along the main divide to the head of the north young. And I remember one campsite we had, just before Young Peak and it was in this little saddle and it was the most gorgeous site. And I remember getting up at first light and looking across at, mount and just, the morning light was stunning. But look, any of those locations are just out of this world and I just love being up there above Bush line, looking across beach filled valleys. and then up to, mountains again on the next range over. Particularly on the West coast where you can look out to sea. And just thinking of another place we went to, over this winter, we went up above Lake grainy there, on the end of the house range. And again, some of those campsites where you are camped up high, looking out across the flats, out to the Tasman sea. I mean that they're just incredible places to be parked up for the night. I think one hut that really amazed me. There's lots of huts that I love and the wills are certainly a favorite of ours. But one hut we visited last summer was Stan's Hut, which is up on the prices range above the foa. it was put in by deer hunters or hunters, and it's maintained by, I think, safari Club or something like that. But we were amazed when we got in there and looked. Through the hub book and Joe did a count up of all the entries in the hub book. And over the last 10 years, Only three parties had walked in and, we were one of those parties that had walked in. there's no tracks to it. And that was a pretty awesome place to be to think, wow, not many people walk here. And we felt really privileged to have been one of those, two or three parties to have walked there. so that's a pretty neat hut.

Jonty 5:35

How did you find that? does that look at the top map and thought, oh, I wonder how we get there.

David 5:39

Oh, look, we are inspired by, Nina Dickoff and James Thornton and some of the trips they do, they're incredible trans alpine trampers and climbers. and they'd been in there we'd seen their sort of trip report and thought that's an interesting place to go to. And we'd already planned to come along the price range, so we dropped down and visited it and yeah, it's pretty neat. Andrew Bugles has been there and they've been there and one other party had been there and that was it. So really on foot, everyone else flies in, so that was pretty neat to go somewhere that, not many people walk to.

Jonty 6:05

Have you got any tips or tricks for off track? Tramping,

David 6:09

take your time. Be patient. Don't rush.

Jonty 6:13

Have you had any memorable wildlife encounters?

David 6:16

For me, the highlights would be rifleman for sure. rock, rain, those little small birds, rifleman in the forest, rock re in the alpine zone. I love seeing rock ring that they're a gorgeous little bird. Kaka, love kaka. I think kaka are such a special bird, underrated bird. Less of a fan of Kia. They do more damage than you want sometimes. Kaka are an incredible bird. I love seeing kaka. they're like Kia, but they're a lot more cultivated and cultured. they'll certainly let you know they're there and they're interested in you. they're a real treat to see in the forest. for sure.

Jonty 6:45

And moving on to the work side of things.

David 6:47

I've dabbled in a number of things over the years. I was really fortunate in my PhD studies is going back a long time. I was looking at the relationship between tree growth and temperature and that involved going to alpine tree line sites at different places around the south island and sampling trees to measure their growth rings. So I spent, several months based on the crop, which is one of the tributaries of the the comb. And explored a lot of that country. Ivory Lake before it was a popular place when it was a glacier before it was a lake, and all that country through there and worked there. I did field work in the landsbury. The craigieburn was a major part of my study areas. And then I got into forest ecology did a lot of work in the early time at the university working on West Coast Forest. I love West Coast Forest. Understanding what makes 'em tick. Basically, what trees occur, where, what's driving disturbance and then from there I got more involved with threatened plants. A lot of work around restoration ecology, and started working a lot more on the eastern side of the main divide and working a lot with farmers, helping farmers understand, what native biodiversity they had on their farms how their farm, management practices interacted with that. I've been very fortunate. I've worked with a large number of high country farmers from. Mount Nicholas, Walter Peak down here, right up to Moles Station in the arbitrary. Glenmore would be one I spent probably more time on than any of the others. these properties have got extensive native grasslands, alpine ecosystems, as well as more developed, lower flats and that, and it's been a real privilege to be able to work with those farmers to help them understand, what are the significant values on their farms and how their management interacts with that. And then helping them, adjust that management sometimes to, better support that native biodiversity. and a lot of that's been around helping them, put in place monitoring to track change and just understand how native biodiversity is changing. And then in parallel with that, I've been becoming, quite involved. Over a number of years with restoration, how do we bring forest back into these sheep and beef farming landscapes? How can we, encourage nature to come back? And I've worked across a range of projects doing that sort of work, and really right through to the present day where I'm still working part-time and really interested in how we can help build resilience in our landscapes to the effects of climate change. And to me, my single biggest fear. For the future is that climate change is real. There's no denying the reality of climate change. Because of climate change. We're getting more frequent extreme storm events. The extremes might not be any worse, but they're becoming more frequent and we're seeing it right now. So I'm really interested in how we can use native vegetation and native ecosystems to help build resilience. And I think, native biodiversity offers, obviously resilience, but it also offers us a whole lot for native plants and animals. So if we can get win-win outcomes and I'm, I really believe that. That we need to be empowering landowners to look at bringing more native vegetation, native wetlands back into their farms. And that can build up resilience in their farming operations, but it has those downstream benefits for places like Nelson and Gisborne and other places that are vulnerable to these extreme events and really help make our whole landscapes and our communities more resilient as we move into the future. And I think just to finish off of what I'm involved in now, I think, we. Gotta also look at the resilience of our old growth forests. one of my fears, the extensive beach forest down here in Otago South Westland, the mixed kart broadly forests up through central Westland and the beach forests again in the north. And those forests are starting to get subjected to more extreme conditions, more frequent drought, in particular. And that stresses them. And then those forests are full of ungulates, full of deer and goats and pigs and tar and trying to understand the way that those introduced animals. are also making those forests more vulnerable to climate change. Because if we start losing those forests, they're also helping build resilience in our lowlands. All of those things, um, come together to me today when I go out and, and what I'm involved in now.

Jonty 10:33

That's good. There's lots of things to unpack in there and to discuss, it's particularly good 'cause you've had such an extensive career that you've been able to see the changes over that time. Management of introduced species. Or are we getting better at managing them and we seeing the impacts of those on non-native bush?

David 10:51

it's an interesting question. We are really aware as a nation, as people in this country about the impacts of carnivorous predators, so stokes and rats and also things like possums. Possums are omnivores, so they're both browsers. And carnivals there's some incredible work going on all around the country and lots of tramping groups are involved in it. and I think our bird life in particular, our Liz as well have really benefited from that. And down here we've got Southern Lake Sanctuary and they're doing some incredible work with both paid staff, but also with lots of volunteers in terms of trapping and dealing with the pressures that those species are putting on. I think where we are struggling in New Zealand is with the herbivores it's a tricky one because you go into forests and I remember we walked the Kepler three or four winters ago, and it looks beautiful, and everywhere I go and a lot of what I'm doing is informed by what I'm seeing. Tramping and the Kepler's the same as, when we're up, in the highest range here a few weeks ago, any of the valleys around Otago, Targa mountains here are the same. You've got gorgeous, red Beach, silver Beach canopy. a lovely understory crown fern or prickly shield fern, but there's nothing in between. That is a really hard thing for people to get their mind around. 'cause the forest looks beautiful. You can take wonderful photographs looking through that forest and it looks lovely, but it's missing the in-between layer. And the in-between layer is things like broad leaf and marble leaf and wine, berry and FIA and three finger and all of those things. And these are the palatable species. These are the species that are. Our deer and other um, s are taking out in the north island and the north of the south island goats as well are having a massive impact. and that in between layer is really important 'cause it provides food for our birds. And in the long term, sure we can bring our carnivals down, our stokes and rats down, but if there isn't food resources available in these forests, they're gonna be affected in the longer term. You go into this forest, you'll see broadleaf. It might be, a hundred years old, but it won't have any foliage below about two meters. 'cause that's the height the deer browse at. And the interesting thing is that, those forests were degraded right back, in the forties and the fifties and the sixties. And then the helicopter hunting came and brought deer numbers down. But of course today it only takes one or two deer every. Few weeks to keep the forest in a degraded state. It took those big mobs of 50, a hundred deer they talked about before the helicopters came in to degrade the system. But now it only takes a few animals to keep it in that state, and I think that's not well understood.

Jonty 13:12

Okay. I'm thinking of places where people could see the environment as it should be then without that impact?

David 13:18

Probably some of the offshore islands. So places like capite would, would be one where there are no deer, ba basically places where there aren't deer or goats. And there are not many places like that in New Zealand. Obviously the fence areas, the Brook Sanctuary and Nelson would be a really good example where. it has really improved just 'cause it's now had no ungulates, no deer in it now for 20 odd years now, but they're pretty limited and it's it's challenging to understand because I say the forest looks beautiful, but it's missing these elements. So to me, as an ecologist looking at it, I can see the elements that are missing and I might be a bit boring. People go champion with me because I keep talking about it, but it's so in your face, you just can't ignore it.

Jonty 13:55

And it's, that's always that tension with the hunting community and what is the right number to have that level of balance.

David 14:01

And it's an interesting tension. Look, I've been quite involved politically in the last few months in advocating for a national ungulate strategy for New Zealand. And so I'm talking to, recreational hunters. I'm talking to wild animal recovery people, the people in the helicopters. I've got friend who's deer farmer, I'm talking to federated firms, all those different groups around these issues. and I think, to me, as an ecologist. As a tramper, I'd love to see zero deer, zero goats, zero pigs in New Zealand. But that's not gonna happen socially. it's unfortunately not gonna happen because they've got other values and I know that, they're important for recreation. They're an important protein source for a lot of people. So we've gotta find a system that we can recognize that they've got values, but recognize they also have impact. So I've been pushing quite hard. Or some sort of national strategy that does that. I think we will get there at some point. I think there is progress happening.

Jonty 14:51

So would that sit under dock or is it under the hunting minister or the joint?

David 14:55

I think it has, no, it'll sit under dock because Dock has the primary responsibility under the Wild Animal Control Act. And also I think because Doc of course manages a third of New Zealand and most farmers are really supportive of Bringing down the numbers of deer and goats and pigs. 'cause they're a huge problem for farming. A friend of mine who farms in South was telling me how some of the farmers down there are losing a third of their winter crops to deer. Deer are coming out of the forest and they're feeding on the crops. I had a farmer tell me Up north how he gave up farming because pigs were predating his lambs and I was talking to someone just the other day and they were saying the same thing happens in Southlands, pigs coming outta plantation forests onto farmland, and they're just picking up new lambs and they're killing them. People just don't, I don't think appreciate that. Farmers aren't friends of these animals. most farmers, really can see the problem as well. So I think there's room to get the different groups together, and if we're gonna tackle deer and pigs and goats, and we've gotta do it across all landscapes, because, conservation land sits behind farmland plantation forest and carbon forests, sit there as well. And they, all these animals cover, large territory. So they move around the landscape

Jonty 15:59

because I think that's an interesting theme from the work you've done is. You talk about focusing on the two thirds of land, which isn't conservation land, often the focus is on that one third conservation and the dock controls. But yeah, the value is in the rest of the land as well.

David 16:12

Yeah. The rest of the land's really important because, the land That is part of the public conservation estate is mainly upland, mountainous areas. It's our stunning, spectacular alpine country for sure. But if we want to look at biodiversity across all of Otero and New Zealand, then the lowlands and the hill country is really important. And that's where most of our farming systems are. Sheep and beef farming and the like. And there's very little public conservation land in those areas. So if we are to conserve those lower altitude drier rainfall type communities and their biodiversity. We need to do it on farmland. So farmland is really important. But also coming back to that resilient story, a lot of the catchments that feed our more developed areas, our horticulture, our urban areas. Sure, they might have headwaters up in conservation land, but a lot of the tributaries are coming outta farmland as well. So both from a biodiversity and a resilience point of view, I think farmland is fundamentally important.

Jonty 17:03

How have you seen the attitudes of farmers change over time to these arguments?

David 17:07

The farmers, people have said to me, David, you work with farmers who obviously are biased and for sure I work with farmers who wanna work with me. but I think, I believe strongly that, you've gotta a bell curve and if you can shift one end, you're gonna shift the middle. and I think you'll get the change. Farmers, they're not ecologists, they're not trained as conservation biologists, so they don't necessarily know what they've got on their farms. And one of the things that always really gives me a big buzz is when you start talking to a farmer and you start showing them things, they'll say, wow, I didn't know I had this, I didn't realize this was important. And I think it's that awareness and then it changes attitudes and I'm always amazed, I talk to a lot of catchment groups, which are. Farmer, groups around the country and, the enthusiasm and interest is always very high. Farmers also are, of course, they've gotta have a financially viable farming model. So they're not necessarily, cash rich. But, they're certainly interested and I think, I believe very strongly in the idea that, we don't need to do everything today. tomorrow let's try and spread it over a number of years and let's work towards a long-term goal. And I think, that resonates well with the farmers. I work. With,

Jonty 18:09

are there any misconceptions people have around what ecological restoration actually involves? I think people think, oh, just put some native trees in there or plants and that will fix it.

David 18:18

I think the biggest misconception, and it applies to any conservation management, is that you can go out and plant an area and then it'll look after itself. And because of how much we as humans in this country have changed the environment, now we need to be managing areas. And perpetuity effectively. because of the impacts of deer of weeds and other things, we need to be looking after these areas. So to me, restoration or looking at, fencing, a remnant, it's not a one-off activity. It's something that requires ongoing inputs into the future. That's probably the biggest misconception I see out there.

Jonty 18:52

I guess it's a bit like predator free. You can take them all out, but unless you put a big fence around it, it's gonna need ongoing maintenance.

David 18:58

Yeah, exactly. That's a really important point because you're gonna invest all this money into this work, whether it's predator free or whether it's a planting. and a lot of upfront cost goes in, you've gotta keep that work up and that's, it's a much lower cost. But if you stop it, you lose everything. So it is thinking about the long term.

Jonty 19:15

Do you think we've reached bottom in terms of the damage to the ecosystems? Or is it continuing to be degraded?

David 19:20

That's a complex question to answer. I think we've effectively reached the bottom in terms of habitat loss. There's a little bit of habitat loss going on, and by that I'm talking about direct clearance. There's not much direct clearance. We know like on Banks Peninsula, the cover of native woody vegetation, there's much higher today than it was say 50 years ago. 'cause been regenerating. And there are still unfortunately some bad examples where stuff is being cleared, but they're pretty limited. But I think what really worries me is that, climate change is now starting to have an impact on our systems. Because conditions are warming and. changing. We're seeing plants invading where they haven't invaded in the past. So Banana Passion Vine would be an example. It's been making its way down the east coast of the south island. It's right down to Dunedin at least now. it's interesting around here where everyone talks about old man's beard as the major, weedy, crem. we're starting to see one or two other species turning up as well. and whether that's due to climate change or whether it's just due to time, I'm not sure. But, I think there are still things coming in that are gonna change our systems And as I said before, I think ungulates, deer, pigs, goats are continuing to degrade our systems. I really worry that climate change with these other stresses together is potentially gonna lead to a lot more, challenges in the future.

Jonty 20:35

Terrible, but in some ways it's becoming more obvious, particularly some of the climate change impacts. Are you seeing a greater level of awareness, around farmers and others?

David 20:44

Yeah, farmers are definitely a lot more aware now because they're getting more drought, they're getting more unusual. Weather conditions, I think in the general public, I don't know. I think we are really good at sticking our heads in the sand. Cyclone Gabriel was a long time ago. The Nelson Floods, that was just Nelson. Yeah. Kaikora is getting hammered at the moment, but that's just Kaikora. We are quite good at making excuses and saying that was just Kaikora or that was Cyclone It was a one-off event, but we're seeing a lot more of these one-off events. If you read all of the, like mfe latest assessment, state of the environment, they talk about. the frequency of these events is becoming more common. And that's the thing that's really worrying that it is more common. And again, everyone, come back to tramping and climbing. It's obvious the glaciers are receding, but of course, as the glaciers recede that's the. That's kinda like the canary in the coal mine is telling us that a whole lot of other changes are going on in the system as well, and as a outdoors person that affects access and things like that. but it's also gonna affect water flows downstream and it's gonna have a whole raft of other implications. I think people are at one level aware, but at another level. We are not really yet as a country comfortable to accept, we actually need some pretty fundamental changes. And I guess what motivates me in that space is, look, I'm not in a position where I can change people's, use of fossil fuels, for example. I think because of my expertise in Restoration Ecology, I think I can help us try and build resilience in our landscapes, because even if we stop producing emissions, today or tomorrow, we're still gonna get climate change for decades to come because it's already up there in the atmosphere. And so I believe that the role that Nature can play, and people talk about nature-based solutions is to help build resilience. Sure, it'll draw down carbon from the atmosphere as well, which is important. But to me, the real importance is in building resilience. That means looking after our old growth forest behind me, up the head of the hunter, the muck order. on the West coast up in, the rahini, the ua, looking after those old growth forests so that they're not shedding sediment and water. And then bringing restoration to build more forests to help slow down and stabilize our landscapes and make us resilient to climate change. And that's the thing that I'm really putting my energy into because I think it's really important.

Jonty 22:50

So what role can Trampers and outdoor enthusiasts play in protecting and restoring these ecosystems?

David 22:56

I think being aware of what's going on is important. I think just, having open eyes and being aware that. These places aren't like what they used to be and You know the only glacier you can get to on foot in New Zealand today easily is Brewster. And there's a reason why that is. And that's because of climate change. You can't access France and Fox and all these other places anymore. And the big ones on the east. I suppose, working with those groups, like the work that Southern Lake Sanctuary does down here and the upper Klu catchment, the work that lots of, community groups are doing, on Banks Peninsula where I've been involved in the past groups like Summer Road Society Banks, peninsula Conservation Trust, and there are huge numbers of. tramping groups that are involved in those projects. And I think, being involved in that sort of work is really invaluable. and I think, that does contribute hugely to, trying to address some of these issues.

Jonty 23:42

How did you get involved with the Think Like a Forest film? And for those who haven't seen it, what are they missing out on?

David 23:48

Oh, they're missing out on an amazing 35 minute documentary, so a little plug for it. You can see it on TV NZ plus TV NZ on demand. It's a really good film about some of the really awesome mahi that's going on in New Zealand around trying to look after restore native forests. Focuses just on Canterbury and Raf, and that's purely because that's all the resources we had when we pulled it together. It comes out of. Concerns that an organization called Pure Advantage, which is a not-for-profit, and I help out as a science advisor to pure advantage. it comes outta concerns that we had three years ago now about carbon farming and the way that New Zealand was relying on carbon farming for trying to meet its, climate goals in terms of the Paris agreements and the fact that. Monocultures of pine trees don't actually solve any problems. They don't create resilient landscapes. They don't do anything for biodiversity. In fact, they're gonna create liabilities, massive liabilities for future generations. 'cause they're not gonna last. They're not permanent, they're not enduring. And so we started promoting the idea of native forests and restoring native forests. And we called the program Recre Cloaking, Papa Nuku. The idea of recre cloaking the mother Earth and that's an initiative we've been developing over the last couple of years. The goal is to to try and restore and enhance 2 million hectares of native forest and wetland across the country. And that's to try and build landscape resilience, but also look after the old growth forest so that the forest up in the mountains as well. And then think like a forest is really a case study of. Of some of the great mahi that people are doing in that space. So it's kinda like really saying, this is what we're after. With re cloaking Papa Nuku and Sam Gibson, Sam the Trapman who's is the person that takes us on the journey. He does a marvelous job of of taking us through that whole rationale for why we need to be thinking like a forest.

Jonty 25:35

thinking back on your career, what do you think being the most important or influential pieces of research that you did?

David 25:42

It's a interesting, reflective question. I think. There are a number of things I've been involved in. I was very fortunate, I worked with a colleague who was in DOC at the time and we developed what became the New Zealand Threat Classification system and that was pretty cool to be involved in that. I did some work around, the sort of whole mainland island concept back in the 1990s when that wasn't really a thing. So that's really neat 'cause that's led to some really great work since then. obviously done a number of ecological studies, more scientific things, but I think the thing that I feel most satisfied with is the work that I've done in really making farmers aware of the biodiversity on their land and raising the profile of biodiversity within that two thirds of New Zealand that's not part of the conservation estate. And I feel, very satisfied and very comfortable that, that is something that I think has helped, change attitudes and move things on. And I think when you look at the amount of, what catchment groups are doing now, in all sorts of different issues across the country. And I think of things like the, the Forest Bridge Trust and Northland, which is trying to connect between the and the East coast to provide Kiwi able to move and farmers are getting involved in these projects. And down here there are similar examples. I just think it's exciting that, and I like to think I've played a small role in, in helping raise the awareness in the farming community.

Jonty 26:55

Wonderful, excellent work. And just to finish up with your, tramping bucket list, what trips do you have left to do?

David 27:02

Oh, there's too many. I think there's some awesome places in Southwestern to go and visit, still look, some of those big valleys That drain in the ridges between them, the drain in south Aha theta, the watoto you know, the cascade and all that country down through there. we've been around the edges of it, but we'd love to get further into it. There's still so much country in Southwest and we did a cool trip up the Raki and over into the PGA last summer. I would like to keep going from the PGA over into the, and some of those catchments there and country I've been in the past. I'd love to get back into the won and the and Back into the gardens and places like that. there're just so many places. And look, there's unfinished business in the Papas as well. many years ago, we started off to do a traverse along the papas and because of the weather, we never finished it. So keen to go and finish that off. Yeah. And then there's Kaur, Rangi. I've only touched the surface of that. There's too many places.

Peter 27:52

So

Speaker 27:55

Thank you so much for listening to the Tramping life. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please follow the podcast in whatever app you use. Tell a friend about it and consider leaving a rating or a review. It really helps more people discover the show. you have any questions or feedback, I'd love to hear from you. Drop me an email at the tramping life, one word@gmail.com.