Speaker 3 0:00

The Takahe call,

Kayla 0:01

it's just like obscenely cute. It's like. And then

Speaker 3 0:07

one goes burp back. It's just unreasonably charming.

Peter 0:10

So

Speaker 0:18

Kiro and welcome to the Tramping Life, a podcast about hiking in outro New Zealand, or as we call it here, tramping. I'm jt, and in each episode I chat with people who share passion for exploring this incredible country. We'll hear about the tracks they love, the huts they return to, the lessons they've learned, and what keeps them heading back into the bush.

Jonty 0:37

My guest today is Kayla Kingdom Bear, chief executive of WWF New Zealand. She's a strong advocate for biodiversity, climate action, and the role of indigenous communities in conservation. I'm delighted to welcome her to the podcast, What are your earliest memories of the outdoors?

Speaker 3 0:52

You can probably tell from my accent, I was not born in Alto or New Zealand. I'm Canadian by birth and my dad's a forester, a silver culture forester. So a lot of my childhood was spent growing up in fairly remote parts of Western Canada, and being out in the woods was. A daily occurrence. I don't think we've ever purchased a Christmas tree from a tree lot. It's always go find your own. So I grew up in the forest basically. But we were also on the coastal fjords of British Columbia. So we spent a lot of time on the ocean as well. And I suppose in terms of multi-day trips, my first kind of memories of that would be in Kayak. My parents and I did a lot of multi-day kayak trips out to the Broken Islands group, through the Archipelagos, which was pretty amazing. Also my dad was a scout, with his brothers and I think my granddad was like a scout master, my dad used to tell these epic bedtime stories, and I grew up with stories of my father's exploits, they had some legendary outdoor outings, including around the Bower Lake Circuit and, the West Coast Trail. So it was in my DNA basically.

Jonty 1:56

And did you do much hiking there

Speaker 3 1:58

either? growing up primarily day hikes with my parents, I'm sure we would've done some overnights, but we don't have the same setup in Canada as we do in New Zealand with the accessibility of huts. I really got into multi-day. Tramping when we moved to Alua over 15 years ago with my partner, who is also a very avid outdoors person.

Jonty 2:17

And how did you find that experience when you moved here in terms of the, I guess the contrast of the bush versus, back home?

Speaker 3 2:22

There's quite a sharp distinction. I guess in terms of the things that might take you out or pose risk in wilderness, Canada, particularly Western Northern Canada, is full of apex predators, creatures that are subject of mythical lore. But oftentimes that you don't really want to encounter when you're out by yourself or in a small group in the wilderness. So the likes of grizzly bears, cougars, bobcats, even wolves. In New Zealand, the kind of lovely thing about our bush is the only things that can kill you are the weather and your own stupidity. In some ways it feels a little bit more accessible, although of course that's not always true. Yeah. But that was a revelation for me. The network of both kind of front country and back country huts that New Zealand has is a real treasure for the people of, it means that some of our wildest places are more accessible than they would be otherwise. And I think people here probably don't realize what a gift that hut network actually is.

Jonty 3:22

What was your first multi-day tramp?

Speaker 3 3:24

Oh, I'm gonna be so basic, but our first multi-day tramp was the April Tasman Great Walk. When we came down here, we were like early twenties and very broke. I was still finishing my PhD so I didn't have a job and Matt was like a first year medical resident, so we didn't come down with any tramping kit to speak of other than, boots, we were able to do The able Tasman basically an accommodation the whole way. So we didn't even have to stay in the dark huts, which meant we could do most of it with fairly light packs. Blew my mind that you could do a multi-day tramp and some were as spectacular as the Able Tasman National Park with to stay packs.

Jonty 3:57

I read somewhere that you think the Hefe track is the greatest great walk. Why do you think that?

Speaker 3 4:01

The diversity of the Hefe truck is just incredible. If you take five days to do it, which I would entirely recommend, you walk through a different ecological system every day. The kind of wildlife you can encounter on the HiFi is really second to none. If you're lucky you'll encounter some pretty amazing creatures, including. kiwi that are not necessarily nocturnal that will hunt on the shoreline. I was never lucky enough to see them. But on the HiFi, you can encounter kiwi if you're lucky, and of course, tuck hay in the wild, which, really pushed it over the top for me. Just the difference of every day that you get on that track is pretty amazing. And I'll also say there are heaps of really wonderful swimming holes. So if you're with a company of friends and you have reasonably good weather, no one's smelly by the end of the trip, which is also a massive plus.

Jonty 4:52

And what's been the most challenging tramp you've done?

Speaker 3 4:55

We live in, primarily live in Tangata in Wellington, so we're up in the Roma attackers and up in the todos pretty frequently. My husband is very adventurous and we have had some pretty. Challenging outings in the uras that have challenged us physically, that have challenged our marriage. there's a lot of those actually. But I love the uras. even if you go to the same place frequently because the weather's so variable. Every time you're in the bush it's a little bit different. we've had some wonderful adventures there. southern crossing, the jumbo holdsworth circuit, we spent Christmas Eve, up in jumbo hut in the worst conditions ever. So we were the only people in that. And it was just magical actually. But it was really challenging 'cause it was sideways rain and very cold. one of the hardest things I think I've done. It was actually only a single day tramp, but we went up, catch Pool Valley to do the Mount Matthew Summit and we successfully did it in a single day, but that is a hard ascent in one day. That was quite challenging. we also do a lot of trail running, last year I did The Blue Mountains Ultra in Australia, and it was probably the hardest thing I've ever put my body through beautiful scenery, but holy moly, it was challenging.

Jonty 6:06

What are some of your favorite huts or campsites?

Speaker 3 6:09

The first hut on the paparoa track is amazing. It's a small one. Not everyone chooses to stay there. but it's beautiful and it's been recently reconstructed. It's got these incredible windows in a way that you don't often have with the older huts. So you've got this beautiful vista. it's a lovely small hut, which, we just adored staying in, but really recommend that one. a lot of people who do the Hi E in four days choose to miss out Go and Downs Hut, which, because it's a bit of an older one I can understand the rationale for. But Go and Downs is a very unusual ecosystem with the Tussic Valleys. every time I speak to someone who's gonna do the he VI recommend they stay there and stretch the trip out to five days because it's your best chance of seeing tuck hay. And it's actually just a really neat part of the walk. It's worth spending some time there.

Kayla 6:54

Have you had any particularly memorable

Jonty 6:55

wildlife encounters?

Speaker 3 6:57

Okay. You can probably tell I'm a massive takahe enthusiast. So encountering Takahe in the wild for me remains a highlight. I dunno if you've ever seen, takahe pair bond, right? And I dunno if you've ever seen two interacting with each other. You know when they're not just chilling out in ze landia, but when they're actively forging together in Tasic, they have this amazing way of communicating where they call out to each other quite frequently. And the Takahe call,

Kayla 7:21

it's just like obscenely cute. It's like. And then

Speaker 3 7:27

one goes burp back. It's just unreasonably charming. And so getting to encounter taaka hay in that natural state exhibiting that behavior was pretty amazing. Internationally, we've done some walks which have been great for wildlife. we walked the Kima Coto Trail in Japan, which is actually a pilgrimage walk. And midway through I encountered a fired belied Newt. Which was, I dunno if you've ever seen fired belly nudes, but they are, they're spectacular. they live up to their name and they're really docile, so loads of Japanese children will play with them, so you can just pick them up. Apparently they excrete this kind of, substance that can suffocate you. So don't put them near your mouth, but yes, interacting with fired Belly Newt was definitely a highlight. And more recently I've been back to Canada with, some of the work that we've been doing at WWF for research and we got to go to a really remote part of the northwest coast, which I'd never been to before. We were staying in a place called K Clem two, but we were traveling throughout the territory of the Ki Suha people and they live in grizzly territory. They were a nation that. Helped lead the establishment of the Great Bear Rainforest Sanctuary and we encountered a bunch of grizzly bears, like really close in the wild, which was quite a paradigm shift for me actually, because growing up, the conventional wisdom about grizzlies that prevails amongst people who go to the outdoors is that you're in real trouble if you encounter a grizzly. They say. If you encounter a black bear, you're usually fine and you can play dead you're probably gonna survive unless you come between a mother and cubs, grizzlies, however, I grew up quite afraid of, people were just like, if you bump into a grizzly bear and they take an interest in you, like you gotta run, you gotta climb a tree. Good luck out running a grizzly bear, or even out climbing one. They are incredible, powerful, hugely fast creatures. But the kitsu ha people and their coastal First Nation neighbors have been coexisting with these bears for millennia, since time immemorial, and they have a completely different view of. Their risk to human survival. So it was really interesting to be out on a walk, with some of the tribal leaders. We went right up to a salmon bearing stream in the middle of a salmon run and within, I wanna say within 30 seconds of us sitting down, very large juvenile grizzly bear, amd past us. And with grizzlies you can smell them before you see them. And all of what I've been told growing up set me on just high alert. I just couldn't imagine ever being that close to a grizzly bear. But the grizzly bear, unsurprisingly, was vastly more interested in the salmon than it was in us, although they're very curious. So it did come over and check us out, but it really changed the way I think about. human wildlife interactions and it made me

Kayla 10:08

Reconsider what I understood as true,

Jonty 10:10

it's a nice segue into what WW F does, and I'm interested in how does it fit into the, the conservation ecosystem in New Zealand, you've got forest and bird and Greenpeace and environmental society, and how you all work together.

Speaker 3 10:24

The conservation space in RO is really special and amazing. It often surprises Kiwis to hear that we have one of the highest rates of conservation volunteerism on the planet, and I think that's really something very special about New Zealand. It's also testament, I think, to the fact that. Our national identity as Kiwis is so firmly rooted in our natural environment. and you can also see it in the way that the predator free movement took off post 2015 when the government announced that sort of moonshot goal, the explosion of backyard trapping groups. And, we've always had a strong practice of every community having their local bush restoration group. It's really special and you can point to the work of. WWF and EDS and Forest and Bird and Greenpeace, and I think we're known for kind of our high level political advocacy primarily. But there's a lot of great work across the MOTU being done by smaller entities, whether it's, predator Free groups, Bush restoration groups, or even the sort of species specific entities like the Yellowy Penguin Trust or the Hector and Maui Dolphin Defenders, or the Native Bird Rescue Centers. there's quite a complex ecosystem so. it's not just the four big ones. And we all work together, right? So WWF directly funds a lot of that on the ground action that smaller entities are doing. There's no need for us to replicate it. I've always seen our role as getting behind it and supporting community based leadership where we can, but with respect to political advocacy, and engagement with industry, the four of us, I think, take a leading role in that. New Zealand's a small place, right? It's a big place, but population-wise it's a small place. And I think there are too many live issues for any one ENGO to cover all of capably. WWF works really closely with our colleagues at Greenpeace at Forest and bred EDS. We collaborate on some issues and we also try to make space for each other, to contribute where we have particular specialist capability. WWF's niche for quite a long time has been on ocean conservation. We're very focused on spatial protection, so ensuring New Zealand lives up to its commitment to protect 30% of the marine environment by 2030. We're very focused on a transformation to achieve sustainable fisheries management, both in shore and in the deep water, even in the far furthest reaches of art. New Zealand's territory, like the sub Antarctic. And we also do high level kind of policy and political work around. The nexus of nature and climate. I think, what sets us apart a little bit from our colleagues in the ENG sector is we tend to have the most engagement with industry on some of those issues. Although we value those who call out greenwashing, and we also will do that. our firm belief is that solving some of these problems. You can't just throw rocks at industry, there is a real need to come around the table together and establish where we have common ground and common interests. And our engagement with the commercial fisheries sector is testament to our approach there. At the end of the day, everybody wants there to be fish in the sea, and we might. Want that for different reasons, but I think we can all agree that a healthy, thriving marine environment is critically important to Otto's wellbeing and the health of the natural environment. And so sometimes we differ on how to get there or what needs to be done, but we try to take a kind of first principles perspective and bring industry with us as far as we can.

Jonty 13:53

Can you give any examples of WWF projects or partnerships that have had an impact?

Speaker 3 13:58

I can speak to some of our work on ocean conservation and sustainable fisheries management For many years we've been involved in fisheries transparency initiatives. So of the NGOs, we are the ones who've been most deeply involved in the rollout and design of the cameras on boats program. So we had technical staff on that implementation technical advisory group. We've been advocating for it for a really long time. We engaged in a quite a transformational partnership with Moana Fisheries a number of years ago, which has resulted in their processing and receiving a facility in PO are becoming fully traceable. So they now have the technology in place in that facility too. Completely trace the supply chain in terms of where each fish has been caught and how, and by which methodology. As far as I know, they're not using it right now which I think is somewhat reflective of the political environment at the moment. But I love doing work like that where you can engage, a corporate entity. on a nature positive initiative like that, which then provides proof of concept for policy change. So we can demonstrate that the Moana can do it now. They can do it in a cost effective way if they so wish. And that strengthens our argument with ministers that New Zealand's fisheries should become fully traceable, fully transparent. So that's a good example. As I'm sure you're aware, the last sort of two and a half years have been pretty dark for environmental and climate policy in Altura. But one of the few wins that we have had, has been around the interventions that have been put in place to prevent seabird bycatch. On the surface, long line, new Zealand's commercial surface, long line fleet. New Zealand known as the seabird capital of the world quite rightly. We have probably the highest number of endemic breeding seabirds on the planet here. and 90% of our seabirds now are threatened with extinction, which is quite concerning. Really critically, we know that one of the biggest threats to drive their decline is being incidentally, accidentally caught by commercial fisheries. work has been underway for the last 30 years to basically do the science to prove that's the case. To understand the drivers of these birds decline, understand what interventions can be taken to halt and reverse it. that's looked like supporting science on tracking the anti and albatross and other birds. looking at the migration patterns of Petrols. high level advocacy at international forums like acap, which is the, the mechanism by which we try to conserve albatross and petrols and advocating for best practice, regulations to be taken up by that body. Post ACAP establishing its best practice. In New Zealand, we've been advocating for that to be taken up in a mandatory way by the industry for many years. And it really wasn't until the rollout of cameras on boats and that first tranche of voluntary reporting came out that revealed that fishers interactions with albatross and petrols were being under reported by 400%, that we really landed the argument that those bycatch mitigation measures needed to be made mandatory. So it was a multi-pronged, many decades of work science advocacy, international advocacy, really technical input into New Zealand's own cameras on boats rollout. But finally, it's resulted in the intervention that we know is going to turn things around for our seabirds. I only hope it's just not too late for them. Our niche is around climate and nature. And also, turning the tide for some of our threatened species, but particularly focusing on our ocean territory. The reason for that is not just that WWF's kind of specific capabilities tend to sit in the area, but New Zealand's ocean territory is 15 times larger than our land mass. Upwards of 80% of our endemic biodiversity is found in the marine environment. It's hugely under-resourced. It's hugely understudied. So I think about what we can do in El Tero to support a healthy planet for future generations, for everyone. and I really do believe that New Zealand's great gift to the world. Can be in the sustainable management of our ocean territory. And that requires a step change, both in the way that we protect it because we currently protect less than 1%, which is honestly embarrassing. It puts us globally tied for last with Russia and China, which are fairly unhappy bedfellows to be co-located with on that metric. But also with respect to how our QMS, the quota management system works. Whilst it was world leading, or at least novel when it was introduced back in the 1980s, I think we have seen with the collapse of certain fisheries and kind of the impacts we're seeing on our threatened species, including particularly sub Antarctic, and I'm thinking about the New Zealand Sea Lion,, but some of our seabird species. I don't think you can say that the QMS is doing what it needs to do for nature. And when we look. Down the barrel of a changing climate, which is going to exacerbate risk and pressures. I think we have to confront the question that having QMS settings geared towards what we call maximum sustainable yield, which is designed basically to enable industry to take out. As much fish of any stock, as much biomass as that particular stock can sustain to still survive at a level that it can, persist. Basically, that level may not be sufficient to enable the other creatures in the food web that rely on those species to survive,. We're. Potentially beginning to starve some of our native species to death, which is something I think most New Zealanders would be really shocked to consider, but if you take a good hard look at what we're doing down in the sub Antarctic, in the Southern Ocean, up around the Hauraki Gulf, that's exactly what we're now doing.

Jonty 19:24

So what are some of the best practice alternatives we could consider?

Speaker 3 19:27

We need to be looking at the fundamental settings of the QMS and basically just leaving more fish in the sea, leaving more biomass across all stocks, but particularly, what we would describe as bait stocks. So smaller fish that are seabirds and marine mammals really rely very heavily upon leaving a share for nature, and increasingly implementing the precautionary principle when we know that the impact of commercial fishing is having, adverse effect on threatened species, whether that's through bycatch. So we see that with Hector and Maui Dolphins with Yellow Eye Penguin, or whether we're concerned about instances of malnutrition and potential starvation like we've been seeing with the crash of New Zealand Sea Lion Pops, the pup counts in down solo and the sub antics. The other thing I think we need to confront is the impact that bottom trolling has and continues to have on our ecosystem. So David Attenborough's documentary called Ocean that was released in May this year. It really shone a light on the impact of not protecting, not adequately, spatially protecting the ocean, but also. What bottom impacting phishing methods actually do. The footage in that documentary is graphic. It was the first time that most people globally and in New Zealand have actually got to see what bottom trolling looks like from the perspective of having cameras on a T tra net. And it's hard to see that and not conclude that it is a wasteful damaging methodology. Bottom trolls. No matter what the fishing industry says, yes, there have been some, advancements in terms of nets that are used and, hopefully they continue to improve their technology to try and reduce their impact. But fundamentally, you cannot avoid the fact that you are a dragging a heavy weighted net across the benthic environment. It is completely indiscriminate in terms of what gets caught. And even though you might be going after one fish, hokey snapper. You get all sorts of stuff because fish don't just hang out in groups. And the kind of bycatch that you see, those creatures and when they're pulled up onto deck, they don't survive. They just get chucked back overboard. and in addition to the incidental mortality of a whole bunch of non-target critters, It damages the sea floor immeasurably and a lot of those smaller bait species, fish species rely on plants and coral structures and sponges to live in. So even if they're not killed in the initial troll, their habitat has been decimated in a way that they simply can't survive if we did that on land, the exact right analogy is bulldozing a forest. Without sustainable practices, you've rendered that entire area completely inhabitable. It's a desolate wasteland. In the case of New Zealand, we're looking at a situation now where the northern population of yellow wide penguin, the only population of yellow wide penguin that we have on mainland New Zealand that's not in the sub Antarctic is looking at functional extinction within the next 18 months to two years. And the reason for that. it's complex, but what we have been seeing is a bycatch. These birds are getting caught and killed in set nets, but we've also been seeing a huge decline in the number of chicks that have been successfully reared. And the reason for that, from what I understand, is. Yellow white penguins feed their chicks on small fish, primarily red cod, Kauai, et cetera. these species require a healthy benthic environment to survive so much bottom impacting fishing has been going on through the foraging range, that there is no longer that environment to support those fish. Therefore, largely they're just catching blue cod, which is too big to feed their chicks. The chicks are literally starving to death because they can't ingest the fish, the only fish their parents are able to catch. That is a direct result of what we're doing to the sea floor with our fishing methodologies, and that is shameful. if it comes to pass that the only place we can see, Yellow Eye Penguin in New Zealand is on the back of our $5 note. because of our mismanagement of the marine environment

Kayla 23:29

that is going to be. A travesty.

Jonty 23:31

How has moving from Dock to WWF changed your perspective on conservation?

Kayla 23:35

In some ways it hasn't. The

Speaker 3 23:37

issues are the same. I've noticed that a lot of people in the conservation sector are pretty critical of the department. And, having been on the inside of the Department of Conservation for the better part of a decade, I could honestly say that I've not encountered a more committed, ethically motivated group of public servants on the planet. Doc staff relative to anybody else in the public service, and certainly anyone working in the private sector are just ridiculously underpaid. And the kind of commitment that people have to the work that they're doing, whether they're, working out in the field or they're sitting behind a desk, it entails people doing very long hours and sometimes quite arduous conditions. And with generosity and with joy because, it is also a privilege to get to work on issues that are so meaningful. But I don't understand why doc gets such a bad rap, because having seen the inside of it, the people who work there are really very committed to the public good and really want to help community groups and others, see nature survive. For all New Zealanders and also for our planet, when I was the policy director at doc, we were always up against resourcing challenges. Doc manages a third of New Zealand's landmass and a good chunk of our marine environment and because we also have responsibility for managing our threatened species, our native species. The brief is quite wide, so almost any remotely environmental issue or ones that touch upon resource use or tourism in government would come across my desk. it meant it was a really exciting job. But we never had enough people to cover all the issues of the day that were going on in a policy context. People talk about there being a poverty mentality at doc that we've been running on the smell of an oily reg since our inception in the 1980s, which I agree with, especially because I've worked in other public service agencies and the situation there is pretty different. So I used to think we were just like the brokest ever at Doc. And then when I left and started working in the ENGO sector, I learned what true poverty was. When I started at WWF, we didn't even have our own office. We didn't have a printer. We've been coming through a pretty rough financial patch outta the backend of COVID, which has affected a lot of charitable organizations. But it's given me a new appreciation for what running on the smell of an oily rag looks like.

Jonty 25:59

Final question, just to come back on the tramping side of things. What's on your bucket list?

Speaker 3 26:03

Oh, okay. So I've never seen a kiwi foraging on a beach on ra. That's on the list I've told. It's amazing. I'd love to go back down there and do the extended Kuta circuit, which is apparently really cool. I've not done the full Aya track, so I'd love to spend a bit more time on Gray Barrier Island. It's such a beautiful place and it's actually a really spectacular walk. And, someday I would definitely consider doing ro I think hugely challenging personal experience, but a real celebration of the diversity of New Zealand's ecosystems and landscapes. And someday, if I've got the time and the knees would give it a

Kayla 26:40

go.

Peter 26:40

So

Speaker 26:43

Thank you so much for listening to the Tramping life. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please follow the podcast in whatever app you use. Tell a friend about it and consider leaving a rating or a review. It really helps more people discover the show. you have any questions or feedback, I'd love to hear from you. Drop me an email at the tramping life, one word@gmail.com.