Eugenie 0:00

there've been a few incidences one with a burner, which my partner ended up throwing out of the hut and then putting what he thought was a wool jersey over it to smother it and the whole thing sort of melting.

Peter 0:09

So

Speaker 0:16

Kiro and welcome to the Tramping Life, a podcast about hiking in outro New Zealand, or as we call it here, tramping. I'm jt, and in each episode I chat with people who share passion for exploring this incredible country. We'll hear about the tracks they love, the huts they return to, the lessons they've learned, and what keeps them heading back into the bush.

Jonty 0:36

My guest today is Eugeni Sage, former minister of conservation and longtime environmental advocate. She has played a key role in protecting New Zealand's natural heritage and strengthening conservation policy. I'm delighted to welcome her to the podcast, Kira.

Eugenie 0:49

Kira,

Jonty 0:50

I would like to start with people's first memories of the outdoors.

Eugenie 0:54

I grew up in Auckland and there was a gully with a stream at the bottom. So we had a fairly free range childhood, uh, was the oldest of four, three younger brothers. And so there was just a lot of huts and forts and, mucking around in the Bosch, really.

Jonty 1:14

And do you remember when you started getting into tramping?

Eugenie 1:17

Went on an overnight trip at the Pinnacles uh, KA Valley in Corra Mandel. I think it was in the last year at secondary school with three of our fathers. And I still remember quite a long slog up the hill and some of my school friends carrying some tinned food, I think, and wondering why their packs were so heavy. But I didn't really do a lot of tramping. As a young person, as a family, we were more into sailing we had holidays in the rot through a lakes area, and again, just going off, for most of the day, being able to wander through the Bosch coming home when we were hungry.

Jonty 1:54

Then later on in life, you got a bit more into the tramping.

Eugenie 1:57

Yes. Trekking in Nepal to low level, when I took a year out from university and then coming back to do a diploma in journalism down in Canterbury, the flat I was in, second overnight trip was up the Den Edwards and it was pouring with rain. We'd camped in the Horton and just going up to try and approach Walker Pass. It was just hosing down. So I've got photographs of some very miserable four of us very wet retreating down the valley, but it wasn't really until, post university. Job on the west coast, working for the then forest service, the environmental forestry section, and just being based in koka and having that amazing outdoor, experiences just on our doorstep really. And just exploring the coast, going, biking, a little bit of caving and quite tramping

Jonty 2:51

what do you think has been the most challenging tramp you've done, whether physically, mentally, or logistically?

Eugenie 2:57

The most challenging tramps have always involved hot weather. One particular one was going from merch up to Lake Mahi, then up onto the thousand acre plateau, and then going down Larrikin Creek into the moi. And it was just a really hot afternoon. We missed the route. Ended up scrambling down. They're just these boulders as big as houses, really prickly O'Leary, so having to go up and over and down and getting scratched and being really hot and just arriving in. I think we camped overnight and then the next day going down into thei, the forest there, I don't think I'd seen remu trees that tall. And it was just such spectacular forest. So the memories of the previous day melted away

Jonty 3:51

So what's the closest you've ever come to activating A-A-P-L-B?

Eugenie 3:55

The only injury touch wood I've had was actually in the Traverse Valley on just about flat terrain daydreaming along at the end of a tramp. Slipping Gashing my head. Not a major wound, but a lot of blood. A good school friend who was a doctor was with me. She wasn't pleased 'cause her partner with first aid kit was miles down the track and I didn't have a very good first aid kit. It was all fine, but it reminded me to always be alert and not to take anywhere for granted even, valley floor tracks, which shouldn't pose any risks. So that was a very stupid thing, just tripping and gashing head on a rock. But yeah, it was in a very benign environment. So be alert. I guess I've taken from that.

Jonty 4:40

That's understandable. I think statistically most accidents happen towards the end of the day when you're tired, when you're trying to get to the heart

Eugenie 4:45

and there've been a few incidences one with a burner, which my partner ended up throwing out of the hut and then putting what he thought was a wool jersey over it to smother it and the whole thing sort of melting. But fortunately that did not set anything on fire. And always really careful around burners and yeah, always quite worried about the flammability of those,

Jonty 5:03

and do you have any favorite huts or campsites?

Eugenie 5:06

I think Bob's hut in the Kentucky, and Sean Barnett and Rob Brown and just FairPoint have got a lovely story about Bob's hut and shelter from the storm, because I wondered who Bob was because it's this very cute, hut built by the Forest Service in the late 1950s. So it's that sort of original, hut design. I think it's now eight bunks. And just its location close to the river, looking up to the mountains, beach, forest behind, and the size of it and scale and its heritage. So that's probably a favorite. It's been some good campsites, again, thousand acre plateau just under the beach forest there with some of those creeks Recently the St. James and. The Anne Hut I think it was built about 10, 11 years ago. Somebody had scratched on the nameplate, the most exposed hut in New Zealand 'cause the winds come whistling around it. But I thought it was just stunning. It's been so well looked after. It still looks almost brand new and because there was snow on the mountains and just the wide expanse of landscape around it, this little dot in the middle. Yeah, it was quite a charming heart and very comfortable after a day out in the cold in the wind,

Jonty 6:21

But there's a bit of a downside in terms of some of the environmental damage you saw.

Eugenie 6:25

Yes. I'd last walked the St. James probably about 30 odd years ago, and spring is an amazing time to walk it chilly, but with snow. It just really adds contrast to the landscapes. But, um. was really appalled by the amount of pig damage, particularly around really ancient Maori and St. James. I was working for Frost Bird at the time, and we, with FMC top Helen Clark and. Felt while walking. Extraordinary grateful to Helen Clark. 'cause it was one of the last acts of that, labor government to purchase the 73 odd thousand, hectares of St. James. 40 million. I think at the time, a lot of criticism from the farmers, but. Because the Stevenson family had been very conservative in their farming regime and they didn't want intensive development. That purchase has safeguarded it from intensive farming development, and so yes, you can see horses which are still run there, but the damage now is from wild ungulates and the pig damage. Just huge amount of routing around the mago. And it's not many places in Canterbury where you can see such tall and old Maori, which I would imagine would be several hundred years old, and the routing will just completely destabilize and kill them. whole focus of predator free. New Zealand has been on, possums. But we should be doing that as well as focusing on ungulate control and investing a lot more in pig control and deer, control. And even on the port hills, you can see pig rooting damage. PEs three banks, peninsula's got a really good initiative to, do control with remote, sensing and trapping, which has been proving very effective. Central government needs to invest much more to protect these landscapes that we enjoy. There's no point just in the big features being protected if we're not also protecting the diversity of the vegetation.

Jonty 8:28

I remember when I St. James last year, Canadian geese also seemed to be quite a big issue.

Eugenie 8:34

Yeah. Canada Geese, that was again, federated farmers lobbied government to take the responsibility of Canada management. Away from fish and game, so no one is responsible for their management numbers have just exploded and like you was really concerned to see the fouling, of wetlands and riparian areas and streams just from massive numbers of Canada.

Jonty 8:56

Now, on a more positive note regarding wildlife, if you had any memorable wildlife encounters,

Eugenie 9:01

One of the most memorable recently was just on a day walk to Tasman Lakes at Raki Mount, and I just noticed a flicker of movement and thought, oh, maybe that's Falcon Went over and got one flu down this little gully. It's in the the boulder lands and moss lands. And then we got within about two to three meters and I was crouched down. And because apparently if you are below. they don't feel threatened. So we were able to just sit there for about 15 minutes and watch it. Just preening and just this, really memorable. vista of the landscape, the valley, and then the, Falcon Perched on a rock. So that was, yeah, pretty special being able to get that close. And another one was actually Kate Brett. There's a great tramp out to the lighthouse there, which has restored. It's a wonderful place to stay. And then climbing down and I'd just taken some swimming goggles and. The fish life here was better than at the poor nights because of the impacts of the barons there because of the impacts of invasive urchin, not the New Zealand one. It's an Australian one. Being able to do that, just go down and see all these, fish that you don't normally see, on the Canterbury Coast anyway, was very cool.

Jonty 10:19

You retired as an NPAA couple of years ago, are you're still involved in what's going on?

Eugenie 10:24

Yes, stood down in October, 2023. Have tried to live a bit more opportunities to go tramping, try to grow more vegetables and fruit looking after a 2-year-old. I don't have children, but say son of a nephew and he's just amazing. Just, the way their small brains just develop and grow. Have been making quite a few submissions just on some of the game Animal council amendments, which would allow herds of special interest to be established in national parks. That's just been reported back from select committee with largely unchanged and that then creates. A real disincentive for doctor to do aerial 10 80 control. And we'll see, I think priority given to management of ungulates rather than indigenous biodiversity in our national parks with the proposals for establishment of at least three herds of special interest for, dear and the like, and also the proposals for modernizing quote unquote. Conservation legislation made quite a substantive submission on that, as did a number of others. New Zealand conservation Authority, the Parliamentary commissioner for the environment, the NGOs, eds, and Forest, I see those proposals as very dangerous, because they're all about streamlining. The current legislation making it much easier for commercial, opportunities in, national parks and protected lands. Making it much easier for 60% of the conservation estate to be exchanged or potentially sold. If you've got a developer with high impacts some of the subdivision tourist type lodge proposals, gondola proposal in Fran Joseph. They may well want to acquire conservation land so that they have fewer restrictions on their commercial activities than to seek a concession. So the land exchange and disposal provisions, the proposals and the discussion document were very troubling, and streamlining generally means cutting out opportunities for the public to have a say about how public conservation lands should be managed. The legislation does need review because National Parks Act, conservation Act. the National Parks Act doesn't have a treaty clause or any treaty commitments. There are lot of challenges, but the department has more. Responsibilities under treaty settlements than any other crown agency and the conservation estate is 30% of our, is the place where UA can, really practice, the whole responsibility to total. So we have got a responsibility to keep it in public ownership, to fully implement the 3d to modernize the legislation, yes. But what this government is doing. Just tramples all over the treaty and also makes it much easier, for commercial development. So I think we'll see a major attack when the legislation is actually introduced. When you've got ministers like Shane dos just trashing, endemic species and saying they can just be exploited, nature can be exploited, then there is just absolutely no commitment to, or recognition of the importance of, indigenous nature to our economic, social, and physical wellbeing. The late Jim Bulger, he and Bill Birch were trampers. So you had, even in a conservative government, and conservative and conservation have a similar route. There was a commitment to, protection. Kaing and National Park, was established under the Bulger government. You just don't see that under this government. It's all about economic activity, not even growth.

Jonty 14:14

I was gonna ask, 'cause back in the day you worked with Helen Clark, as press secretary when she was minister of Conservation, and I'd be interested to understand how, I guess the politics around conservation has changed over that time.

Eugenie 14:26

I think then, the department was new. The whole joining up of the green dots within the Forest Service, New Zealand lands and survey and the wildlife service was new. There were teething issues. Papa National Park was just being established. There was more of a recognition of the need to protect, parts of ROA from exploitation. it wasn't couched in the terms of indigenous biodiversity, but the importance of place now, I think the politics are, just a total contempt for nature and whether it's in the marine environment or on land, there's just nothing. Done to actually advance protection. Whereas, back in the late eighties, yes, there were the major changes that the fourth labor government, put in place economically. Under Helen Clark, the banks Peninsula Marine Mammal Sanctuary was established because of the evidence of Liz Luten and Steve Dawon doing their PhD thesis about how many dolphins were being caught, by Fishers because they were the first people to actually out what was really happening. some of the issues Haven't really changed. There was a lot of resistance by Fishers then to the establishment of the sanctuary, but acting on the scientific advice that was established when, I was minister and we reviewed the marine mammals, threat management plan for Hector Dolphin. There was a lot of work done on that. It was similar, really strong resistance from fishes. But we did strengthen the sanctuary areas. We expanded them, increased the areas that were free of set net and ting. So some of the issues are enduring, but the politics I think at the moment is just does not recognize that we depend on nature for our wellbeing. It's incredibly shortsighted.

Jonty 16:11

Do you see the relationship with hunters, has that changed over time or was that always gonna be that tension?

Eugenie 16:16

I think, particularly when I drew the departments of tension and pushed really hard for control of Himalayan tar because their population had been allowed to. Which was three statutory population misogynistic. We're a level of ferocity because of social media that I don't think you found, earlier there was much more synchronicity between hunters as just recreational users of public conservation lands in the same way that Trumpers Walkers, campers, others are. But now there's been a much greater politicization to push for, hunting above all else. Hunting's a really important recreational activity, but the political power which certain organizations have sought is to the exclusion of biodiversity often and other users.

Jonty 17:14

Does that relate into some of the powers that the Gay Animal Council, gonna have

Eugenie 17:18

It's a bit puzzling that two statutory organizations, the Game Animal Council and Fish and Game New Zealand, were mobilizing submissions, doc encouraging submissions on documents it puts out, but it doesn't go round telling people what they should write in their submissions. And yet those two statutory bodies were doing that and the Game Animal Council is seeking. A lot of power for itself to dictate how public conservation lands should be managed. And because that will be primarily for hunter purposes biodiversity will suffer. There has been publicity recently about hunters providing food banks with meat, which is, a great initiative by those hunters involved. But I think there's very little recognition of the increasing presence of S and the damage they are doing. As minister, one of the things I was proudest of was the work. Done on Kuga and the establishment of that initiative and the funding of 30 odd million because TEI and NA Perot, alongside Tap had recognized the impact of deer damage in those Raku forests and the erosion that was associated with that, and the need to actually bring down as well as, that. Being a really good example of a partnership between Iwi and the Crown to make that happen

Jonty 18:43

also on a positive note around jobs for Nature. I'd be interested in what learnings you think we could take away from Jobs for Nature and whether that's something the future government could be encouraged to do

Eugenie 18:55

There was a very good three year evaluation of Jobs for Nature done by Alan and Clark, a consultancy that specialized in research and evaluation. They highlighted some of the issues that I'd become aware of, through the program. It was very difficult for any of the organizations getting funding. In terms of reporting. It was quite burdensome because. The Jobs for nature. One of its critical successes, I think was the collaboration across M-P-I-M-F-E, and doc. But they each had different systems and each demanded different metrics and reporting, which was very burdensome for. Organizations that were receiving any funding. So I think that needs to be sorted, but I think the benefits of having a cross government partnership in the environmental space are huge. Agencies did control some of their own streams of money. Like MFE was specializing in fresh water, and initiatives there, but it enabled. Capacity building, particularly amongst Iwi and Hapu. So that should continue in any new program. There should probably be a closer look at the biodiversity values of projects. The focus was very much on jobs because of COVID and that, that environment. And so making sure that. All of the projects have got a real biodiversity value. I think the ones that worked the best were partly where they built on existing partnerships that, doc had, with Iwi, hapu with regional councils. So it was putting money, into where there relationships it did enable an enormous increase in skill and capacity. And the tragedy is that it hasn't been continued. So it's quite difficult for organizations which geared up over that three to four year period. And then, the funding just disappeared. we talk about infrastructure. Well, nature is our key infrastructure. We need to invest in nature-based solutions in the climate adaptation space. And the Jobs for Nature program was a way of doing that, while engaging between central, local government, iwi, hapu, and community organizations. So it's a good model. And this, evaluation report has some very practical ideas of how it could be improved for future ones.

Jonty 21:00

Thinking back on your career as an mp, what are some of the biggest kind of wins that you proud of?

Eugenie 21:07

You only ever achieve a win if you're working with a lot of others. And I think, It was working with forest and Bird and the whole movement to stop the Timberlands speech scheme to stop logging and to actually end logging on state owned, crown owned lands. So that was a very big campaign, native Forest action, doing the tree sits, forest and bird. doing a lot of the advocacy with trying to find ways to tie it up through the RMA and advocacy, just about the values of the forest When a labor government was elected in 1999, one of the first things they did was to announce a halt to the beach scheme and then the winding up of Timberlands, and then later in about 2002, the transfer of 30,000 he of Timberland. Managed land to, department of Conservation. That was a huge achievement. But that was achieved by a mass movement, thousands of people getting involved around the country. lots of media coverage. so being part of that I think is, yeah, it is. When people work together, they can make a difference. and then, I guess with tenure review. Working with forest and bird making endless submissions after a lot of, walking around in field inspections on pastoral leases that, areas deserve protection when they were being proposed for freehold. And yes, we did get, high country conservation parks out of that. But because there was such extensive freehold, over 330 odd thousand heta and Dr. Anne Brower's analysis of just how much the. Crown and the public were losing, as a minister of Lands, being able to develop, introduce, and pass legislation to stop tenure review and stop that privatization process. So yeah it's being involved in movements that actually seek change because government initiatives. Don't just happen because a minister thinks it's a good idea. It's usually a result of quite a lot of public pressure and mobilization.

Jonty 23:06

There's quite a tension between I guess tourism and the impact and the trade-offs with the conservation estate and some ideas around things like charging for national parks, entry to national parks. I wonder what your thoughts are on how we make this sustainable.

Eugenie 23:20

So that was a major initiative in 2018, I think it was, where we got the international visitor levy established. And that is an efficient way of enabling tourists to contribute to the funding of nature and of tourism infrastructure problem is because of our. free trade and other agreements. CER Australians don't qualify. So support the government raising, the levy to a hundred dollars, but it's not being invested according to the same principles when the visitor levy was established, which was, 50 50 split between conservation and tourism infrastructure. Now we see a few and drabs conservation. So I think something like that at the border is much more, effective and, fairer than having Charger National Parks because I think that will encourage non-compliance. you don't have roads going into all national parks where you could have a tollgate, maybe old, and I, it happens. US and Australia. but I'm not sure how we get around this, issue of the fact that Australians, our. The department looking at parking fees, I think is good. they should never have allowed places like Whitehorse Hill and AK to be open to camper vans. We want our tourism nodes to be in towns areas outside of our protected areas network because you've already got the infrastructure there and any increasing infrastructure should be in those towns potentially see. National Act, New Zealand first governments proposed legislative change is much more commercial development on our protected lands

Jonty 25:02

Recently you went to the, premier of a film about Denison at Parliament. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Eugenie 25:07

Forton Bird and three 50 and others are campaigning hard for the protection of the Ton Plateau. It's an extraordinary landscape. There's wonderful mountain biking and walking there, these huge sandstone pavements. Tiny bonsai like ratta, remu because the growing conditions are so, inhospitable up there, cold, wet plants grow, really smoke slowly. Hence, they're small, great spotted kiwi in higher numbers there than other places. Because predators don't survive very well in these conditions either. And yet what? Bathurst Australian Coal Mining Company is proposing is to extend the Stockton Mine, which is the only mine you can see from satellites to most. That into the plateau, and it would just mean the utter destruction of these really spectacular landscapes and biodiversity. It is a biodiversity hotspot, which Forest Bird is calling for scientific reserve status to recognize those values and. Just launched a film Denniston about the Dennison Plateau. And it's available on YouTube or there's a link on the Frost Bird website. So if you haven't had the opportunity to visit just you'll be inspired by the landscapes by watching this film.

Jonty 26:26

Now to finish up with what's on your tramping bucket list,

Eugenie 26:30

Doing the Old Ghost Road next month, which will be interesting because I think it goes past where, close to where Larkin Creek comes out. So interesting. Looking back there. Then am really looking forward to a four day trip on, mGA with the legendary Graham Atkins who's a former doc ranger and just Atu and just a botanist in December. And then on the bucket list, would love to get back to Mount. Oh, and I just think the cast landscapes there are fantastic. Haven't done the. Of locket range above the Cobb Valley on Maps is just this whole scattering of amazing looking towns. And I think there's a new hu there on the way up too. That is on the summer's agenda, but even just getting out on the Port Hills and there are just some stunning landscapes there.

Peter 27:20

So

Speaker 27:23

Thank you so much for listening to the Tramping life. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please follow the podcast in whatever app you use. Tell a friend about it and consider leaving a rating or a review. It really helps more people discover the show. you have any questions or feedback, I'd love to hear from you. Drop me an email at the tramping life, one word@gmail.com.