Corina: 0:00

When you're near a river, it just is such a, it's just restoring really. You might go and you've had a really bad day or something like that, and you just hang out by a river for a little while, and, it just makes you feel so much better. It just makes you clear your head, clear your mind, refresh the spirit.

Peter: 0:12

So

Speaker: 0:19

Kiro and welcome to the Tramping Life, a podcast about hiking in outro New Zealand, or as we call it here, tramping. I'm jt, and in each episode I chat with people who share passion for exploring this incredible country. We'll hear about the tracks they love, the huts they return to, the lessons they've learned, and what keeps them heading back into the bush.

Jonty: 0:39

My guest today is Karina Jordan, chief Executive of the Game Animal Council and Fish and Game New Zealand. She's Keith Figan out's New Zealand policies on hunting, fishing, and wildlife. I'm delighted to welcome her to the podcast, so what were your, first memories of being outdoors?

Corina: 0:55

I have a lot. I was really lucky. I got raised, with quite a large family unit and we used to spend our childhoods running around with my cousins, up in the North island. a little place called, Tonga Bay in Northland. And we used to just essentially go crazy. we would be, Snorkeling and diving trying to get, flounder and that sort of thing, just running around with cousins really on the beach and in the environments around there. They've also got a lot of hills and things like that. So we're spending their times running up and down the hills, climbing down cliffs. And when I wasn't doing that, I was riding horses in New Plymouth. I'd be out on the farm riding the horses. my family was always really outdoorsy, so we would be out exploring, the beautiful environment that New Plymouth and Taranaki has to offer, in particular the mountains. Yeah, Mount Taranaki.

Jonty: 1:41

And do you remember what your first multi-day event would've been?

Corina: 1:45

Probably camping, I would think up in Targa Bay. So we would just camp up there and then we'd go fishing out on the boat, out to the islands, back to camp. that would probably be my earliest. Experience. but obviously I've spent a lot of time in the outdoors camping. One of my favorite places to go camping at the moment is, a little campsite. on the banks of the Rana River. And I'm lucky enough that I can get down there with my horses. So I'll take the horses down there and the dog and we'll camp for a few days and fish and swim and just generally enjoy the Orang River, which has got a water conservation order on it. So a beautiful spot.

Jonty: 2:18

A little bit easier than carrying all your own gear. I never really thought the idea of taking a horse with you,

Corina: 2:23

they are super handy. Yep. You can pack a lot of gear in on a horse.

Jonty: 2:26

What has been some of your most challenging trips, whether physically, mentally, or logistically?

Corina: 2:31

We've had a few of those. The other ones that you sort of are in it and you're like, why did I decide to do this thing? But they're other ones that leave you with the best memories afterwards. One of them we're up in the hanis. We got chop it in helping doctors stoke lines. It was one of my first sort of events. It was a three day stoke line. And the route we were doing was really long, really steep and the bottom of it had a river. So we were having to do the stoke line along the river and there was a lot of river crossings up that area. The rivers are really big and baldry and I was finding it really difficult to find my feet. So I was constantly just in the water falling over and I ended up getting hypothe. Yes. So that was a super unpleasant experience. We were very, probably close to pushing the personal locator beacon. But we had helicopters on standby, so they came in and got us out just a little bit earlier. For me, it was a good learning experience. I think it helps when I'm out working with other people and hunting and things like that to just appreciate. How um, quickly you can get cold and how serious that can be. So I'm always like checking people have got the right gear, got the right jackets, and we've got backup plans in place. Do you have any favorite campsites

Jonty: 3:34

or huts?

Corina: 3:36

There's are quite a few around here that are just amazing. Rahini Huts really gorgeous, but I think my favorite one is just camping by the Rania River. I quite like, just finding great places and then just camping out rather than utilizing the huts, though I have, and they've been great. When the weather's turned and things like that.

Jonty: 3:51

So you must have a bit of a daily commute from where you are or can you do a lot of your work remotely?

Corina: 3:56

I'm pretty lucky with working for the Game Animal Council and also I'm part-time seconded to Fish and Game as SEO at the moment. I work from home when I can, but mostly I do a lot of travel, so I'm traveling a lot around the country to meet up with different groups. I do quite a bit of work in Wellington, obviously with politicians and with the ministries. And I spend a fair amount of time down in the south island.

Jonty: 4:15

So some lessons may not be familiar with the Game Animal Council or Fish and Game New Zealand. Could you give a bit of an intro of what they do?

Corina: 4:22

Yeah, definitely. The Game Animal Council. It's a fairly new statutory organization, that's had its own act of parliament that was put into place in 2013. And it's got a statutory role to advise the Minister on Game Animal Management and to represent the voice of hunters. Essentially. And so it does a lot of advising the minister. It works a lot with the Department of Conservation and it works a lot with our foundations. And so when I talk about foundations, I'm talking about non-governmental groups the Hunter lead groups where they're proactively managing herds in various parts of the country or they have an interest in those herds. Seeker Foundation comes to mind, WOTY Foundation, we've got the TAR Foundation, we've got the Heritage Red Deer Foundation, and there's a new trust set up in Rocky looking after the white tail herd down there. So I do a lot of work with those groups. Essentially a lot of work, advising on management, ensuring that we're. Valuing our game animals, but we're managing them as well, so we can have the hunter outcomes as well as the conservation outcomes.

Jonty: 5:16

Can you explain to me a little bit about the WPP Tea Foundation?'cause it may not be familiar to all listeners or to myself.

Corina: 5:21

So the WPI Foundation's um, has been operating in the um, Feland National Park area. Since about 2004, the Field and Wie Foundation advocated for and secured the right to manage the impacts of WPI Deer as part of the feland National Park Management Plan. And on an annual basis, they call, several hundred deer within the field and National Park. They'll cull the red deer to make sure that they aren't within that area and hybridizing with the Ty. And they'll also, they'll cull the female. So they'll make sure that it's a smaller herd that can live sustainably within that environment without impacting on the environment. And it provides a really good hunting resource at the end of the day as well. They run a ballot system, so each year they hold a ballot. Hunters from across the country apply for that ballot. If they're successful, they'll go in for a period of time and then hunt ty and then come out as gain, and hunters will pay for that ballot so that money that hunters contribute to the ballot or to the ability to hunt the ty and goes then into managing the Ty herd and then managing also for those conservation outcomes.

Jonty: 6:18

And then Fish and Game New Zealand.

Corina: 6:20

It's another statutory organization. This one's an old one. It's established under the Conservation Act 1983, I think. It has a role for managing sports fishing game bird populations in the interests of hunters. And it has on ground hands-on management that it does for these species. So think sports, fish like trout and salmon game birds like mallards. And also some of our indigenous species are game birds as well, like pko and paradise. She, jack. So it manages those, it advocates for their habitats. they also do wetland restoration and re habitation as well.

Jonty: 6:49

When do they get their funding from?

Corina: 6:51

So fish and game's funded by license holders. So fish and game charges a license for freshwater fishing or game bird hunting. And so that funds, the organization gets a little bit of donations and things like that but it's predominantly licensed holders. The Game Animal Council that's just got a small budget and it's funded through Vote Conservation, looking for developing independence in its income stream so it can add more value to management and hunting across the country.

Jonty: 7:14

What, I guess some of the challenges that. The different organizations face.

Corina: 7:18

I think the challenges for the hunting sector and for the gay animal Council is really unpacking the role of. Valued into just species in New Zealand. those are ungulates, so our deer and our pigs, and advocating for a more modern conservation approach. at the moment we've got the Game Animal Council, which is quite new, 2013. But then We've got this really old conservation act or framework that's in place that really needs to be modernized. both of those don't talk well to each other. they're inconsistent. the Game Animal Council Act, was about, creating a new tool called Herds of Special Interest, to empower hunters to lead on game animal management, to deliver for both hunters and conservation. A great example of that is the Woty Foundation really successful in this space. I suppose that's probably one of the biggest challenges for the gay men or council in the sector is getting those settings right so that we can all work together as a community, hunters and non-hunters alike to manage these animals so that they reduce their impacts on the environment while still maintaining, the intrinsic values that they have to our society Other values that they have, including the hunting values and the ability for our communities to go and collect, beautiful free range food from our bush kitchens and take it back to their communities, that type of thing. Fish and game's got some different challenges. It's well established. it's probably coming into a reform period as well. the government's looking at creating a new fish and game act, Because our conservation ACT's really old. It needs to be modernized. So what the government's gonna do is pull fish and game out of the conservation Act, create a new act for it, and that'll, help streamline its processes and, help modernize the organization a little bit so it can go faster and deliver better, more efficiently for license holders.

Jonty: 8:46

And is the hope for those legislative changes to take place within this, government's term?

Corina: 8:51

Yeah, that's right. So both changes hope to get over the line, within this term of government. So the other one we've got for large game for. But hers of special interest is to get, essentially two hers of special interest over the line. The government's aspiration is two, anyway, it's Ty and Seeker, so they're wanting to finish the Gay Men Council Amendment Act to get that landed. And then Gazette two hers of special interest and have them in place within this term of government.

Jonty: 9:15

So the hers of special interest, is that a relatively new concept or something that's been around for a while and now it's got the opportunity to be implemented?

Corina: 9:22

It's a new tool under the Game Animal Council Act. So that's 2013, but it's now trying to be implemented right now. We've essentially had the Ty Foundation, Acting in a way that's really consistent with what this tool intends to do for a long period of time. So we've got that great success story on the ground that shows us that this can be a really successful model. And now it's about really getting that tool, embedded in legislation. So it's enduring and enabling these hunters to develop the foundations to really lead on herd management on the ground, for the interest of our wider communities. It's a great showcase. What we know is Hunters harvest around about 350,000 large gamer on an annual basis. And so that far exceeds the government pest control efforts. So if we can really empower that, we should be able to get these win-win outcomes that we keep talking about.

Jonty: 10:09

So what sort of changes would people see on the ground as a hunter and then potentially as a conservationist

Corina: 10:14

when we undertake game animal management? Sometimes, depending on where the herd is and the potential impacts it might be having, is we might reduce the size of that herd. in some parts of New Zealand, we've got, large numbers of deer in particular and pigs, and their health has been impacted'cause the, eating beyond the holding capacity of the environment. And then when that happens, they also have impacts on the natural environment as well. So a modern conservation or management of game animals, us to harvest the females. So we'll actively target to reduce the female population. At the same time, we'll take out, male, stags or male animals that have less potential to be a trophy or what hunters might be looking for. in that way we will improve the overall health of the herd so you'll get better meat animals. you'll get better conservation outcomes'cause they won't be eating their habitat right down. And you'll also get a high quality animal for those that are interested in the trophy aspect of hunting as well.

Jonty: 11:07

And is that implemented through, recreational hunters and some professional hunters to be specific about a herd? control aspects.

Corina: 11:14

Yes, that's right. So it's generally done by recreational hunters, but there's a cull aspect to it. So it's not just recreational hunting on the ground when you've got a well-managed herd, you might have a helicopter undertake a cull, a couple of times a year or however often, depending on the needs of that herd. And that will help manage that herd down. So they'll actively target the females in the period where there's, Low hunting pressure on that herd. So outside of maybe the raw or things like that. And then you'll have your ground hunters come in as well. So you might have a ground cull, but then you'll also have your normal hunting activities where they might be targeting bigger animals. They might be looking for a trophy or they might be in there looking for high quality meat animals.

Jonty: 11:50

And what's some of the pushback or some of the reasons that people might be skeptical?

Corina: 11:54

when we went through the Game Animal Council Amendment Act it was concerning. There was quite a push, there was a little part of our community around about 20% of the submissions, I think were pushing back against valuing, introduced species. So they were saying these animals are introduced into New Zealand. They're a pest and they should be eradicated. So it was quite a hypothetical argument against enabling. management tool that would deliver benefits for the herd and benefits for conservation. So there's general, a pushback in relation to recognizing these animals as valued and having management approaches which would recognize their value while also managing for their impacts.

Jonty: 12:27

I guess it's one of the challenges. Yeah. Often species are controversial in conservation circles and how you put a value on something versus trying to eliminate, the game animals.

Corina: 12:37

That's right. they're treating it like a really polarizing conversation where, for example, you can't have conservation outcomes while these animals exist. Whereas from my perspective and from the perspective of large parts of our community, you can have these animals and conservation outcomes, they can go hand in hand. And also, there's a huge part of our community that value these animals. And so if you value these animals and you enable that community, they will actively help you manage the animals and also deliver for those conservation outcomes. And also, from my perspective, it's all really about getting as many people out in our bush and our national parks as possible.'cause when you're in it and you're part of it, then you really value it and you'll protect it. You'll vote to protect it or you'll contribute to policy which protects it. Or you'll do work on the ground, which protects it, like stoke lines, for example.

Jonty: 13:22

And how straightforward is it to collect the data, to be able to really understand the herds.

Corina: 13:27

So it's not really about setting in like a deer density or anything like that. It is about adaptive management and we know to have good adaptive management frameworks, you need to set your outcomes really clearly. And so that might be a, conservation outcome. There might be a browse index that you want to use and so you've be monitoring browse and also seed. Ratio mixes and regeneration. And then you might have metrics around how healthy you want that herd you might have metrics around your community engagement with that environment, with the conservational state, with that national park. So that might be about access also might be about for example, hunter satisfaction or community satisfaction or something like that. When they're in that environment, how are they enjoying it? Is it living up to their aspirations?

Jonty: 14:07

What's the feedback been from doc?

Corina: 14:09

They're being really supportive of the, Woty Foundation, the work that they're doing down there, and generally supportive of the ZY type framework. We've still gotta work through roles and responsibilities. That's an ongoing conversation, but I think they can see the value in engaging hunters to support conservation efforts in New Zealand.

Jonty: 14:24

And what's your perspective on wild pigs and where their position sits in the ecosystem?

Corina: 14:29

wild pigs are hugely valued, especially by ua. They're seen as a food source in Northland, for example. They underpin, the wellbeing of some of those communities as a really essential food source. So they're not to be undervalued. they do have impacts across the country, and we definitely need to manage for those impacts. And I know that there are areas where we have really high, pig populations, so we need to be working to get those populations down.

Jonty: 14:50

It's about the right numbers in the right places.

Corina: 14:53

Yeah, that's right. So it's about identifying their values, but managing for any impacts that they might have. And so that's different depending on the species. And it's different depending on the location. Like you might have a national park, for example. You want those impacts to be super low. You might have other areas where, the communities will, tolerate a few more impacts. For example, recreational hunting area, versus a national park.

Jonty: 15:12

What's the latest position on tar?

Corina: 15:14

So Tara, again, a valued, introduced species. They endangered in their homeland and the Himalayas, they're an amazing animal. But again, they need to be managed for their impacts. So they need to be kept population low enough that they Can be sustained within the environment, but within the holding capacity of that environment. They're quite, a clever species. They do well in a lot of different environments. So we have seen this spread in the south island. That's something that probably needs to be managed. But they've also got huge value. I think one bull Tara, someone told me was worth about$40,000. So there's a huge amount of money within. Species that can then be utilized to go back to, supports economic wellbeing. And it could also be funneled back into support conservation efforts as well. And we've got the TAR foundation and they're amazing. They're doing incredible work down there, working with the Department of Conservation to manage the tar population. So again, it's a valuable hunting resource, supports the economic wellbeing down there with some of those businesses that are established around the herd but also supports those conservation outcomes.

Jonty: 16:07

What about calendar geese?

Corina: 16:09

Canada Geese used to be considered a game animal under fish and game. So they're managed by fish and game. but the farmers became concerned that fish and game wasn't managing them well. So there was pushback from farmers Canada Gas got taken off the Game Bird license, so they're no longer managed by Fish and Game. And since then, their population essentially Quadrupled, skyrocketed, massive issues across the country. I think this is a great story because it talks about the value of, valuing these animals and then managing them by experts that know how to manage them. So like for fish and game and hunters managing the animals that they value. And historically, Canada guests, they were a hundred percent managed by hunters essentially. So hunters paid for their management. Now the cost of managing Canada guests, which aren't being managed, falls back onto our general rate payer, and farmers are having to foot more of that bill.

Jonty: 16:51

So is that loophole gonna be addressed with legislative changes?

Corina: 16:54

At the moment, NPI is talking to Fish and Game about how to manage Canada geese. So we're providing advice on that. I'm not sure where their conversation's gonna end up.

Jonty: 17:01

You've got the dual role of both, across both organizations, there's some synergies, presumably between the two of

Corina: 17:06

At this stage, I'm seeing just huge synergy across, our hunting communities and our fishing communities. I go and catch up with desk workers and things like that, and one of the first questions I ask them to put their hands up, say, who here hunts game birds, or who here, is a freshwater angler and about 70% of the room put their hand up. So that just talks about, that level synergy or consistency across those communities. They're essentially the same community.

Jonty: 17:27

Your background was as a freshwater ecologist. I guess what have changes have you seen over your career

Corina: 17:32

I've got a bit of a very background. I worked in veterinary clinics in my ear earlier job and then retrained and became a freshwater ecologist amongst a whole lot of other things. But I suppose, that background really gives me a passion for freshwater. I'm concerned about freshwater management across New Zealand. We've got some serious issues in some parts of the country. Some parts of the country are doing amazing, headwaters, the Oranga, and there's middle levels. It's a beautiful river. We've got lots of, rural communities. They've got really healthy freshwater that's going through them. So it's not an agricultural issue per se. but some of our areas, think sort of Central Canterbury, some of the, south and rivers and things like that. We've got some major issues. Our big urban centers, Auckland major issues around freshwater health. And so I think as a community we really need to be doing more in that space. Rather than just accepting or saying that these rivers should take up more of our pollution or more of our sediment, or we should do more hard rock because of flood issues I think we should think about them as an essential tool for climate change and adaptation, but also an essential tool to make sure we've got a really resilient environment.

Jonty: 18:30

And fish and game have a, advocacy role around those. And then also some areas of management, so wetlands and restoration activities.

Corina: 18:37

Yeah, that's right.$5 I think it is from every license sold for game Bird hunting goes to the game Bird Habitat Trust. And so it's a trust that fish and game set up. which specifically focus on wetland restoration and rehabilitation. It's a huge amount of work and what we know is we've only got about 9%, of our wetlands left and we still keep losing our small wetlands. And these are really essential habitats, not only for climate change and flood mitigation. They're essential tool within our farmer's toolbox for environmental management. but also they're essential habitat for our game species and our indigenous species. So they're vitally important and we really need to be focusing on increasing the number of wetlands we've got across New Zealand, especially our small ones.

Jonty: 19:14

Thinking about the hunting community, have you seen statistics on, how many people hunt and whether those numbers are stable or increasing over time?

Corina: 19:22

It's really hard to survey hunters. Generally they don't like talking to people. I'm kidding. They like to just go and do their own thing and not really be minded about what other people are really doing. and they're not really keen on answering too many survey questions, so it's quite hard to connect with them. We know there's probably around about a hundred thousand hunters out there. It seems, the numbers are really stable. though it seems to me that we've got this emergence of people wanting to go hunting. So you're seeing younger people and a lot more women wanting to get into hunting. deerstalkers run an amazing Hunts course, and what they're telling me is that they are oversubscribed for the number of courses that they can run. So we know that there's a huge amount of interest out there.

Jonty: 19:57

It's interesting about the gender mix. Why do you think that's changing?

Corina: 20:00

For me, I hunt because I find it really liberating. I really like the opportunity to be able to put food on my own table. It's empowering. I also think it's one of the most humane ways to be a meat eater. I'd much rather go and harvest a dead from wild. I know it's been a wild animal. it's killed really quickly, really humanely, and then essentially it's broken down and on my table, so I know it's whole journey and so that lends me to hunting. And I think that's the same for a lot of communities out there, females and male. They're wanting to know where their meat comes from. They're wanting that sense of independence. I think for females as well, it's just wanting to learn new skills and maybe having a little bit more time. Being able to get away from home and get out there and wanting to do something for themselves. It seems to be a real growing movement and a real sense of community that's starting to be established around females getting into hunting.

Jonty: 20:41

Now, what misconceptions do you think that trampers may have about hunters and vice versa, and how do you think the two communities could engage better with each other?

Corina: 20:49

I think, the other thing that's concerning me is firearms law reform and the perceptions of firearms ownership and use. It's a real concerning area. I think there's a social license challenge there. And so I think it's about probably getting more people. Into hunting or using firearms so people can see that they can be super safe. It's just a tool. They can be a lot of fun, when they're used really reasonably and sensibly. so I think that's probably one of the things we're trying to do, get more people into firearms ownership and use, even if it's clay bird shooting, or shooting at the rifle range, even if it's small bore like, a 22. That heaps of fun just at those little targets. and then from there, moving people into hunting. I think for hunters it's about, understanding that people are concerned when they see firearms, and so making sure it's really obvious that the firearm is safe, pointed in a safe direction. We do a lot of training around that. Probably acknowledging trampers and just saying a firearm is safe, it's empty. Just taking them through what they've done so they know that they're safe to engage with. I think that's the same with, the trampers are coming, the tramping, they're not expecting to see a hunter next minute they see this camo person jumping out of the bush armed. And it can be a bit confronting. And so I think it's just all of us understanding that we're just there to enjoy this beautiful environment. That, hunters are really well trained. They're really responsible. They come from all backgrounds, and they're there to have a good time and to make sure that they're harvesting meat in a really safe, responsible way. And they'll often be taking that meat home to their family or their wider community.

Jonty: 22:14

There's lots of good paces for hunting across new, but there only ones that stand out ones that are internationally renowned.

Corina: 22:19

Oh, I think New Zealand, is internationally renowned as a hunting mecca. I know our sports fishing or freshwater fishing is world renowned. And we've got some of the best hunting in the world as well. That seeker herd and the wick is on the, I mean, that's an amazing herd. I personally think seek and meat might be some of the best venison out there. it's incredibly easy to cook. They're small animals, so it's easy to pack out. It's not like packing out a giant big red deer or something like that. But the South Island, that's just got amazing, beautiful, iconic, hunting there, thinking, high country stations and require you've got the greenstone and green cables and places like that.

Jonty: 22:53

What have some of your most memorable encounters with wildlife? Been.

Corina: 22:57

Oh, I've had so many. They're great. So I'll go out hunting and sometimes I'll just look at them through the scope or through the bin nose. You shouldn't really probably be looking at them through the scope, but I just enjoy sitting on a tight hill and just watching the animals really. Shamia one of my favorite. They're just charismatic and just a gorgeous, we antelope and that we have here in New Zealand. They're beautiful, stunning animals. And you don't get very many of them. They tend to self limit, their herd size They're quite solitary. But really just anywhere you'll be out hunting and you'll sneak up and you'll see them feeding in a clearing. I really like watching the Heinz and the Yellings interact. That's really cute. But also, our indigenous species as well. So I was lucky enough that I was hosted down in Feland with the WDI Foundation and we did a stoke line down there. And just, I was really impressed with the, a number of Theo that are within that area, and they're actively managing that stoke line across those rivers to protect the Theo. And so the Theo are doing really well. And I've also come across EO and the ranu and the headwaters up there as well. And they're just a really charismatic we bird. So that's great to see them in the world. But also, you've got our Kia and our kaka and things like that. Yeah, they're incredibly charismatic parrots.

Jonty: 23:59

What have been some of your best work related trips?

Corina: 24:02

I was lucky enough to be hosted by NZ Hunter. So I've had a couple of massive bucket list type adventures with them. One was four wheel driving and the back blocks of the West coast. That was incredible. But the one that really stands out for me was a horse riding hunt. So a big trick that we did from Lake Ridge, essentially. I think it was five days and all. It was a long time. And that was just incredible. So we were riding the horses into our up, packing everything in on the horses, riding along the rivers up to our camps, camping each night, and then hunting. From there. One day we took the horses right up hunting. We were hunting with the horses. But from there we just then would. Leave them at the camp and then hunt on foot. And that was a really effective way of seeing a lot of the country. It was just a massive adventure. I got my first shammy and my first tar, so it was really successful and I missed one red deer, so I just about got the trifecta but missed out, so I'll have to do it again.

Jonty: 24:49

So just finish up with what's on your bucket list of future trips.

Corina: 24:53

I just try and get out as much as possible really. I'm working really long hours and weekends and things like that. And so what I'm doing is just trying to plan to get out and do a bit more freshwater fishing. I wanna have a really good look at Otago and Southland. Try my luck down there. Ti River comes to mind. I think that's the next one on my list. But also I really wanna just get out for just a couple of day hunts. I think even if I don't get anything, but just to stretch the legs and see other parts of our beautiful country.

Peter: 25:18

So

Speaker: 25:21

Thank you so much for listening to the Tramping life. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please follow the podcast in whatever app you use. Tell a friend about it and consider leaving a rating or a review. It really helps more people discover the show. you have any questions or feedback, I'd love to hear from you. Drop me an email at the tramping life, one word@gmail.com.