Geoff: 0:00

I went in there as the storm was breaking and I spent the next, three nights in there and there was just almost continuous thunder and lightning, massive rain, the water running off everything. And I was tucked up in this little tin,

Speaker: 0:22

Kiro and welcome to the Tramping Life, a podcast about hiking in outro New Zealand, or as we call it here, tramping. I'm jt, and in each episode I chat with people who share passion for exploring this incredible country. We'll hear about the tracks they love, the huts they return to, the lessons they've learned, and what keeps them heading back into the bush.

Jonty: 0:42

my guest today is Jeff Spearpoint, one of New Zealand's most experienced trampers writers and backcountry advocates over decades, has explored some of the most remote corners of New Zealand. Helped to preserve our tracks and huts and share his journey through books, photography, and articles that have inspired countless trampers. I'm delighted to welcome him to the podcast. Kira, Jeff.

Geoff: 1:02

Thank you Johnny.

Jonty: 1:04

I like to start the podcast with the beginnings. What are your first memories and experiences of being outdoors?

Geoff: 1:10

It goes right back to childhood really. I lived in upper Hut, which is a suburb in Wellington. And I spent time in the local, park Hills Native Forest, investigating nature, basically finding birds nests. Climbed up a karma heat tree one time to see a bird's nest and a rat jumped out of it. And that was like a memory that, still remains today. I was probably about 10. My father worked in a, a timber mill at one stage and had a very good, knowledge of native timbers. you know, I could give him a piece of wood, and he'd just know what it was, just by sniffing it. I joined a youth group, through a friend at school and ended up doing a walkup, a local hill mount climb. It's in the Ru Tucker Rangers. And that was a seminal change for me. It was a day trip with them. And I ended up, standing on this, little clear knob and seeing the Taras and some of the other possibilities for being out in the hills. I had to explore these places. so that's what it did with schoolmates, before any championing clubs involvement or whatever. And, we had a lot of fun. We had a lot of adventures. We used a lot of the hus and tracks that had been put in by Forest Service. It was a fantastic, thing I discovered existed in the hills. I had no idea as a kid that there were rivers in the mountains and things like that. We, did what you do when you are young. We were more just adventuring, but ended up doing, some fairly gruy, trips on the tops in summer. Then tried to do the same thing in winter and it's a whole different game. And he ended up in Significant strife. We went up the near Winche Ridge, ended up, up on the tops, near dark. knee deep, thigh deep in snow. wearing a school, Parker, no idea really. We had fortunately, seen a little Forest service pvi. We didn't know it was there. It had only just recently gone in and so we were able to retreat to that because we had no tent. I had a Cape Box sleeping bag, we were totally ill unequipped. But anyway, that bivy saved our lives basically.'cause the bivy just rattled all night with the wind. It was just horrendous. The next day we got ourselves into trouble trying to find our way back down the ridge. The track was poorly marked. We ended up down another spare into another catchment, and eventually got home at about, I don't know, probably 3:00 AM or something like that after trying to hitch out of. The tower was in the dark two school kids. That was a learning curve and we knew we'd been through a bit of an adventure and my parents were a little bit alarmed. They had a friend in the Chapman Club, Malcolm MacCleod. And so I ended up going along to their meetings and, I just relish the club evenings where, someone would get up and talk about adventures and all sorts of parts of the Southern Elks and that, that was just fantastic. Apart from that, I didn't know anyone. I hardly spoke to anyone for about a year and I didn't have the money to do the trips that they were doing, even though it was only just cheap truck transport. That's how it was. Eventually, I broke into that, group and started, doing trips and it just evolved from there. I did lots and lots of trips weekend after weekend and had the wonderful opportunity to meet a lot of very capable people in the mountains and made some very good friends. I was very lucky and I really deeply appreciate that.

Jonty: 4:12

Do you tend to tramp with others or solo tramping or a bit of a mixture?

Speaker: 4:17

It's been everything.

Geoff: 4:18

but I actually enjoy, tramping with others more than I do solo. I've done a lot of solo trips, but I much prefer to share it'cause that's part of it for me. It's the adventure, but it's also the sharing the adventure sparking off each other that's not just as two people, but I've been on trips of up to 50 or so people, and actually some of those larger trips have been a hell of a lot of fun. Everyone I'd suggest it to would say I wouldn't wanna do that. But actually if they were there, they would have enjoyed it as much as me.

Jonty: 4:46

Do you tend to be the instigator of trips? Are you pouring over top maps or you tag along to trips that others have organized?

Geoff: 4:54

I've done both in different parts of my life. When I was younger, I was driving everything and I led a lot of trips, lots and lots of trips. These days I'm quite happy to fall onto the back of other people's trips. But I also have my own missions and ideas and so I'll lead those. Arnold Heney and John Rundle, they were two seminal important people in my life in those early days. and they had a similar focus of trans alpine, journeys. Initially it was north and south Island. I was based in Wellington the, ah, uh, KU range. They were all part of my journeys on a kawa and, and of course, and it's all smooths. I got into climbing spent a lot of time at Bering head, thoroughly enjoyed myself out there climbing all day, having big, driftwood fires at night. Fantastic.

Jonty: 5:41

What was the, the gnarliest or most ambitious

Speaker: 5:44

trip that you.

Geoff: 5:45

It's been lots of memorable trips, Spent two and a half months in the Western fields with a couple of friends in the HVO Chairman Club, Dick Coron and Jim Finch, John McDonald in the dusky and doubtful sound areas where we travel around the different fields and then go and do trips on the tops. The Lord Range and the Gardens and Barlow River in 1 1 2 days. There were quite a lot of events happened on that. We had a tent load of bits. But we got all the way through.

Speaker: 6:16

enthusiasm of youth.

Geoff: 6:17

Day crossing of the Garden of Eden from, Canterbury to Harry Harry in a day was a 24 hour challenge. I'd set myself some years beforehand I tried three or four different times. And eventually with Phil Novus, we, did that and that was, quite satisfying I just did lots and lots of trips all sorts of interesting corners from the Air Mountains to Dispen. I do remember coming out of a trip from the Spencers at this stage, the Spencers weren't in government ownership, it was still a farm. The guy who managed it was, notoriously difficult to get permission off at times to get into the area. And we were on our way out. He's trundling up the road on a bulldozer and we're coming down towards the road. And he sees us and says, he gave him permission to be up here. And one of the other guys on the trip I was with, without blinking an eye, just as said, you did, we rang you. And he gave a completely whole spiel. But anyway, within a few seconds, we were all good mates. We had a good old chat. He happily went on his way. We went on our way. that's the way the mountain should be for about 15 years, I've been leading, trips each year in February to one of the various ice plateaus or glaciers. we've been all over the place from all the way through, from the bracken down to, not quite the Darrens, but certainly the olives. Mount Cook, all those areas, and they've been fantastic. On one of those trips, 2011, we were in the Godly valley and we were camped by the lake at the head of the lake. We'd spent the day on, very steep very loose, rain walls getting through to the head of the lake. Been using a rope to get down through some of that stuff. I look back up at those cliffs and there's just loose boulders everywhere. And I remember thinking to myself, you wouldn't wanna be here in an earthquake. we camped that night and we had a mountain radio, and the mountain radio was late coming on. Eventually a guy came on to say that, he was doing the report, because, the guy who normally did it his house was trashed in Christchurch and he started talking about numbers of people dead. And that's really quite hard to comprehend. It was a very surreal, um, moment to be, going through that. At the very time that earthquake happened, we were in the probably most vulnerable place, getting down so how nothing moved. I do not know.

Jonty: 8:33

You had no idea that the quake had happened.

Geoff: 8:35

I did hear, that the Tasman Lake, a large, piece of had carved off. So obviously the forces were traveling through there. But, yeah, that was those little things that happen in the mountains, you dunno what drives it. Done various trips overseas, climbing trips first one was in 1979 with some friends to the, Indian Himalayas, Graham Macallan Co. I spent about six or eight months with Galene Wilkinson having a wonderful time in the Himalayas and Korum Ranges, doing a lot of trans alpine trips. and then I had a couple of trips with, John Vis and from Wellington, a friend, to, places in Tibet, the Ka Gabo range, the Deep Gorge country and Carter and King Glassier, east of Everest.

Jonty: 9:19

What have you seen overseas that you think we could bring, back to New Zealand or things that you've seen overseas that you really hope doesn't come here?

Geoff: 9:28

Basically New Zealand has evolved its own culture in the mountains and actually, there's not a lot that I wanna particularly bring from overseas to New Zealand. I think, we have what we have because we are who we are and actually we don't need to be, importing the rest of the world's benefits and problems here. We're doing okay. we've got our own unique system. We have our hut network, we have our chat network. Yes, it's a little bit challenging, but that is the New Zealand Mountains and, reflects our landscape and our flora and fauna

Jonty: 9:56

you've been on lots of different adventures. How have you paid for these? What's been the day job?

Geoff: 10:01

Okay, so here's the truth. When I was at school, I didn't know what I wanted to do for when I grew up. And I'll let you know when I've grown up what I'm gonna do. But basically I trained as a technician in microbiology. And, that was okay. I always enjoyed science, but that was not my thing. when I had a conflict between work and an opportunity to do a trip in a remote part of Feland, I went to Feland and that meant leaving the job. And, I didn't think about that too much. So basically. I've worked to feed my, interest in the mountains. And, maybe in today's world I would've done some other thing that would enable me to do both. But those opportunities didn't exist. I looked at wildlife as a possibility to apply for, they took two people a year and I was never gonna be one Forest Service took a few people, but I didn't really wanna be a color. So there were very limited opportunities. But the way it worked out is very good because for me, I was very interested in photography, and also in, writing. I knew a friend in a traveling club who was a federal lithographer and helping out do annual magazines. I got to understand some of the processes involved and got to see that There was actually a career in that which, was both interesting technically and also, something that, I could do as a way of funding what I wanted to do. fortunately for me, at the time, there was a real shortage of photographers and it was a position that was reasonably well paid. I had opportunities in different places. I retrained completely and, ended up working in various places in photolithography. And then, went on to work in Christchurch in the print industry where the periods that were busy were the periods of leading up to Christmas and after Christmas, they were quite happy if I was away. And so that's when I wanted to be away on trips and really doing things. So those two things balanced out pretty well. And, I ended up with a job that paid the bills and a lot of

Speaker: 11:59

time to pursue the trips that I wanted to go on With my

Geoff: 12:03

books. the first one of those was a friend, Peter Radcliffe in Wellington approached me and asked if I would take over a book. He was. doing. Called Waking to the Hills. And that was, one opportunity. I worked in, Mount Aspiring National Park for a few years, and I got to take over the MOS guide North, a new edition of that. I began researching that and anyone will tell you involved in a guidebook, it's the greatest, thing to actually start going to lots of places and investigating all sorts of corners of the country. In that process I got to see that there were actually. A lot of tracks that were falling into disrepair. And one of the ones that really got me was, going to a valley where there was a bridge across a really awkward creek. I ridden the local tourist times that dock had removed it. And they said that actually that had made the valley safer and I could not get my head around that. So anyway, I needed to know what the situation was for the guide. So I went and talked to doc, they said yeah. We took it out I got to understand later that actually when they say safer, it means safer for the department, the department doesn't carry any liabilities. I still drown, But anyway me being me, I was fairly thorough. I went in for a day trip on my own to check it out they said they removed it all I got in there and what they'd done is cut the cables on one side and the whole bridge was just hanging as a mess on the other side. I was pretty incensed at that. That was really dumb with them. Because when I came out, I'm a writer. I sat down with a pen and wrote an article that I called Idiot Wins and put it in the, FMC bulletin. Surprising who reads the FMC bulletin, which I think of as just being outdoor community, but actually I think Helen Clark had read it. And anyway, the next thing it was um, ministerials and questions about this. But anyway that doesn't change the fact that this stuff was going on. The funding wasn't really there, there were issues. So I just started thinking about how I could do something about that. And Andrew Bugles, he's a similar mind, we did initially make, submissions and try and talk to doc and head office and all that. And I went to all those meetings too. But in the end it was, very much deciding that these are actually owned by the people of New Zealand and that doc is there to look after them on our behalf if they're not gonna do it, just like Andrew, I believe that we should go and do it and there's no reason at all in needs to stay an age why that shouldn't happen. I did talk to Doc and I had very good support from, Wayne Costello in France, who was the doc guy there. And others as all the staff there were very good. And same in has Jeff Raw and Co have been very supportive. And so I signed up to three huts down in South Westland to look after. That's Tunnel Creek Roaring Billy and Thomas River. They've all had a lot of attention. There's more things to do, but, that's okay. I'm working together with the department to sort that, But really these documents that I signed initially, at the beginning, there were clauses in them saying things like, if for any reason, we decide we're not happy with what you're doing, we can come in and fix it, and we can charge you the full cost of us flying in with our staff, et cetera, et cetera, basically they would've probably end up selling the house. And I thought that's fairly draconian. Do I as a, a volunteer, wanna go through that? It was really, I understand now really just the lawyers in the department needing to cover themselves But the way I reasoned it was that I thought about that and I thought it's not going to happen anyway. nothing I'm gonna do that's gonna require that. But if they did act unreasonably, how's that going to look on the six o'clock news? And I'll call on everyone I can possibly call in support. And it is not gonna look very good if a volunteer has been taken to court by, the department. But you have to think these things through because in paper in front of you that you're signing it, it looks pretty draconian. Anyway, on from that, management agreements are now much better Britain, and it's been a learning curve all the way through for the backcountry community, for everyone. And, there are some really key people that have, created a culture that's enabled that to happen nationwide and that Lou Sanson needs a big pat on the back for initiating the back country trust and looking at a way that was collaborative we're already several hundred huts, that have been maintained through volunteer work. We can do the rest of this. We do need some support from government and doc, but it's minimal compared with what, it would've cost the department. One of the other good things is also, it's not just the costs, it's also the collaboration. It's also working with, departmental staff. It's the, people, in isolated communities who are working for the department instead of feeling like they're under siege and attack, actually having people that they're working with who are seeing the same problems themselves and sharing that stuff. So there's wind all around. it's good for the community. in terms of taking ownership and actually doing something. And it's good for the department to have, outdoor friends.

Jonty: 16:59

Was there a conscious connection with the classic books, the shelter from the Storm and a bunk for the night with that country movement?

Geoff: 17:06

I think Shelter particularly was seminal and, giving Huts a profile, Huts a very basic, simple. And they've never really been recognized for a very long time. The importance they play in who we are as a people, back country culture, the whole thing, they're often regarded as pretty down there. And I think that what shelter did. Was reflect that back to a community that actually understood how important they were and how special they were. But it also reflected it back to the department and to others in the general community who suddenly saw them as actually having an important part in our history. Announced to Robin, Sean that credit guys for initiating the book. They came, Rob came and visited me and looked through my photos and, he could see that I had a, I filled a big hole at neither of those heads. So that worked out as a really good tree. And we had a fantastic trip with John Rhodes to the middle, crossing the tars and sat in Manga Hooker and fleshed out the overall framework of what we could probably do. And that was a wonderful trip. But I think there was another aspect to it and that is that we. Three guys with an idea the driver and photos. But it needed publishing support. And, so the three of us went away. We divided the book up into, different patches and different arenas. And we each beed around those, flicked them backwards and forwards with each other, and then sent the whole thing to, Robbie. At Robbie Burton Robbie could see exactly where we were coming from, and he backed the book against the, advice of some others around about its potential publishing success. I think putting it out as a coffee table book that's hardcover and well presented, gives huts for the first time the manner that they needed and deserved and they were going to need into the future for, the recognition that they needed. Actually what we are doing now is a return to what we were doing long before DOC existed. So back in the day there were a lot of tramping clubs, alpine clubs, mountaineering clubs, 1, 2, 5, 10 huts that they looked after And, some of those clubs are still doing that. They have been doing it all the way through. When I first joined the Hut Valley Training Club, we'd go away and work on, tracks. what canceled that out and left a big gap for decades was that, forest service. would go in and cut a track through a patch of country and it would be maintained to what a group of, volunteers could do in a weekend. sometimes we came back a few weeks later and Forest Service had been through with their track cutting crews, with, chainsaws, everything. And the whole thing was like a Moen Highway and we couldn't, compete with that. actually we weren't really needed. they were happy to be doing that work. so that dropped off volunteer efforts, but it's not as though it wasn't there in the first place. And it's not as though it wasn't part of the culture for many decades before.

Speaker: 20:02

Before Doc.

Jonty: 20:03

That's an excellent point. I guess on the topic of hus, have you ever counted up how many hus you visited?

Geoff: 20:09

I have never ever counted it up. I've got no idea. I think Hu Bagger is a fantastic site and I totally support it. these things are just other ways for people to get down to the mountains. But here's The irony. I spent about the first 30 years of my life avoiding hearts and, doing, a lot of trans alpine trips into remote places. off track. After I'd done all the tracks in Hudson TAs, I then spent weekend after weekend doing, trips where I'd use the tracks for the first hour, and then after that it would be camping and it would be some isolated, interesting little spurs somewhere. just filling in red lines all over the place and going new places. but now I'm at a phase, I'm in mid seventies and so I'm now at a phase where I'm actually really enjoying, checking out new huts that I haven't been to before. And there's still, fair few around. I've been to a lot, but I haven't been to everything. There's a lot of people way ahead of me in the hu bagging stakes. but these things also provide a focus. They provide a kind of, quite a strong, community of people who are Passionate about, huts

Speaker: 21:10

there's so many to choose from.

Geoff: 21:12

I really like Tunnel Creek. There's something about that place that has a nice ambience, in the head of the Valley. it's all pretty mellow, but it's actually a very nice spot. and I have a particular affection for that, having spent quite a bit of time in there, on the track and hut. But there's a lot of huts on the tops as well. And the tops is my, go-to place really. it's not so much huts individually, I'd probably say more experiences I have at places. I have a very clear memory of a trip I did on my own in the tar to a hut that's long gone now, called Banister Basin. And it was I think Internal Affairs had built it originally. it would certainly never pass any, building standards, but that doesn't matter. but it was, tucked in this, high alpine basin surrounded by banister. Dundas and various peaks. And I went in there as the storm was breaking and I spent the next, three nights in there and there was just almost continuous thunder and lightning, massive rain, the water running off everything. And I was tucked up in this little tin, there wouldn't have been any building paper or anything like that on it. With a little open fire and enough dry firewood to just eke it out and enjoy being there. And I remember moving up onto the top bunk so that I could be, lying with my head so I could hear the rain louder on the tin. It was just fantastic. The thunder just reverberating around those tops. Ongoing lightning. There was so much rain that when I got out to AKA Papa, the streams were all still really high, and I remember seeing a cow get washed away in the stream. this is normally a little creek that kids would play in. it was just a huge rain. But anyway, that was a fantastic experience

Speaker: 22:49

and I just really treasure that memory.

Jonty: 22:51

Now, particularly, you spent a lot of time in the mountains and climate change is a big topic. I'm interested in your, I guess personally, what have you seen in terms of the impact, on our landscapes from climate change in the last kind

Speaker: 23:04

of 50, 60 years that you've been out there? JIA, this has been

Geoff: 23:07

happening for a hundred and something odd years. There's articles in the New Zealand ALP journals by. Changes as in the melting of the glaciers, in the, I think the Tasman, but also on the Franz and Fox. There's various ones that he wasn't just looking at from a distance he was measuring, and actually looking at and writing a, an article for the journal specifically around the recession going on Vice. for me, one of the biggest changes that I already took notice of was going into the Garden of Eden and Ella and, going to Adam's flats and I'd seen photos of Paco's and Alpine journals with, the glacier coming right down to the flat. And quite a significant glacier and behind it, pushing all of that was gone. The, glacier and further up was, much reduced. It was basically dying. and then I stopped and thought about that fairly recently. and really it was only, it was, the mid thirties that Pasco was there. It was the mid seventies when I was there, so that's what, 40 years? Since then, there's been another, 50 or so years. So there's longer now at the other side of it. And you know that recession is continuing. And as it continues, the ice also thins. So there's actually, it's not just at the toe of the glassier, it's also the thickness of the ice on the, plateaus, et cetera. And in places that is, now thin to basically down to the bedrock and a few towns at one end of the western end of the gardens is, thinned right down, but there's still a whole lot of ice in other places. But, yes, it's happening, it's been consistently happening for a long time. One of the other things that people don't talk about is that as the ice recedes, there is less water, in the heads of these catchments locked up. and so that water in spring. From Big Glacier, it means that the rivers are higher if there's a bigger glacier when it's thawing heavily in summer, those rivers are really pumping. Now that's reduced because the volume of ice that there is to melt is much smaller. And this has got big implications for hydro, because actually we rely on, ice melt refreshing them. Or we've been used to a situation where there was an abnormal amount of water running out of the mountains because of the warming while that ice is going. And nothing replacing it.

Jonty: 25:33

In terms of bird life, how have you seen that change over time?

Geoff: 25:36

Does change, but sometimes it's not as clear cut as it seems. You go to a place where, you might go through it on one trip and. See lots of bird life. You come back to it 10 years later and you hear nothing and you come back to it another 10 years. And actually the bird life's just going pumping. And sometimes it depends on the weather, the time of day. but also, obviously there's, been major, hits on all the birds from all of the different predators that there are in the forest now. But I would say that a place like the Waha back in, the 1970s, you could smell possums everywhere.

26:12

What memorable wildlife encounters have you had?

Geoff: 26:14

I've had kiwi run between my legs in the cascade Cove. That was pretty cool. Didn't expect that in the middle of the day, but I guess just surprised them. And cascade Coves in fueled in, dusky Sound. I came down the, sin Bagg Gully near Milford, at the end of a trip. As we were coming down, there was a really weird bird call that I now think was probably kakapo quite close to us, but we had neither the time nor the whatever to go looking. It was hosing. Later on I, discovered that, yeah, they're still in Sinbad Gly. There's memories I have of being in. The Ada Valley near Lewis Pass, one winter, and this was right in the dear to winter August. All of a sudden in the trees just above us, only 10, 15 meters away, really strong, intense, calls. I get out and I start looking up what it might be in terms of birds, and the only thing that comes up, anything close is laughing out. And guess what, they were recorded in that region, not actually that many decades before. So who knows? They're just little, possibilities. But, every trip in the hills is a botanical or a flora fauna trip. And if you're not looking at the flora and fauna, you've gotta ask yourself why you're, why you're there. It's part of understanding what you're walking through and what you're seeing it adds so much to, a journey this is bushcraft. Fundamentals of bushcraft is just one word, observation. And, it starts with recognizing what plants are, then it comes to a point of understanding why they're there and actually what the terrain is that's, enabling them to be there and what their growing conditions are, et cetera. and same with the birds flying around. you know why there, this place in this time of year and not the place and another time of year there is so much information out there that most of us walk past and, don't see and notice, but it's all there to see.

Jonty: 28:08

Now, you've obviously done a huge amount of, do you have anything left on your bucket list of places you want to either go to for the first time or revisit?

Speaker: 28:15

I've got lots of

Geoff: 28:16

places still to go. But I'm at a happy stage where I've looked at all the places that were really itching. I've mostly covered most of that off. There's a few little places here and there, but, they're really little corners and I'm having to find interesting ways to get in and out of them to make a trip of it. I wanna do a trip along the great glassy. I've never been on that and I need to go and check that out. And it's an awkward little place to get to, but not that hard. Along from Sealy, pass towards Denison pass, along the main divide, there's a section there. I'd love to go and have a wander, and I'll do that at some stage. But, other than that, sometimes it's repeating trips that I've, or going to areas that I've been to before that I actually just really enjoy. And some stunning ones around, you know, everyone's the snowballs and glaciers and, the back of, the Maki and some of those places there are endless places. If I had another life, that'd be great, but I haven't.

Jonty: 29:09

Wonderful. I think you've made pretty good use of this life thank you for sharing those experiences.

Speaker: 29:15

Thank you so much for listening to the Tramping life. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please follow the podcast in whatever app you use. Tell a friend about it and consider leaving a rating or a review. It really helps more people discover the show. you have any questions or feedback, I'd love to hear from you. Drop me an email at the tramping life, one word@gmail.com.