Lou 0:00

I set an ambition of by the age of 17 tramping every valley between Hoka and hast. And that was my mission, to just poke into every valley.

Speaker 0:15

Kiro and welcome to the Tramping Life, a podcast about hiking in outro New Zealand, or as we call it here, tramping. I'm jt, and in each episode I chat with people who share passion for exploring this incredible country. We'll hear about the tracks they love, the huts they return to, the lessons they've learned, and what keeps them heading back into the bush.

Jonty 0:35

My guest today is Lou Sanson, the former director general of the Department of Conservation. Under his leadership access to our tracks, huts and national parks expanded and he worked hard to balance the needs of recreation. With the protection of our unique environment, Lou has spent a lifetime connected to the outdoors, and I'm delighted to welcome him to the podcast. Hello, Lou. Good afternoon, John d great to be with you. Thank you very much for your time. We'll start with your background and beginning. Give us a bit of a flavor of where you grew up and what are some of your earliest memories of being outdoors.

Lou 1:07

Yes, I grew up in Hoka dad was a king climber. Mum was more of a tramp and an artist. And from the age of three or four we were being dragged up the Typo Valley or up Kelly's to see the alpine plants. Mum used to love painting Alpine. Plants used to go and strip the bark off track of fill and draw deer and shammy and birds on them. So we were always in the hills and the mountains and being taken on some adventure. It might be up the maki where I promptly got up there and must have been out cutting wood with bare feet and sliced into my toe. So dad had to take us back to the hospital. I think I was only seven or eight then. It was always an adventure with mom and dad.

Jonty 1:47

It sounds like you've been tramping pretty much since you could walk.

Lou 1:50

Yeah, pretty much. I was in the backpack for a few years, and I know they used to take me up. Kelly's, Kelly's was a really famous place we always went at Otra and I think I went up there in a backpack at the age of two, but as soon as I could walk, I was told to walk.

Jonty 2:04

Was there a specific moment or a tramp that made you fall in love with tramping or it was just the way your family worked was you just, you didn't have any option. You had to tramp.

Lou 2:12

My family grew up in the West Coast and loved it, but I guess it was my first tramp on my own when I was 13. At high school. We dropped off out at the road end with Andrew Bugles actually who set up pert and good mates Barry Andrews and Chris and Graham Weaver from Hoka Teka. And at age 13. It was just so cool to be trusted enough. To head up to the sticks, to grassy flat on our own. It was pretty special, really just that sense of maturity at age 13 to being trusted to cross a river and take a pack and go into the hills.

Jonty 2:47

That particularly west coasting is not your beginner's ramping. So to be heading out into the hills in the back country is a fantastic way to start.

Lou 2:54

Yeah, no. From that we just, you know, I, I played rugby and I, I just had this love affair with the hills around Hoka and the Southern Alps. I just got so addicted to tramping that I could only play rugby on the wet days because the fine weekends was in the hills. You've gotta choose between tramping and uh, rugby I set an ambition of by the age of 17 tramping every valley between Hoka and hast. And that was my mission, to just poke into every valley. And once I had my license and my rifle at 15, it was just this amazing big playground.

Jonty 3:30

How did you get on with that mission? Did you get to every valley?

Lou 3:33

Yeah. No, we did actually with there's four or five of us and we just plugged away at it. And I remember exchanging a case of apricots for a jet boat, ride up with the condos, up the inger, and we're always doing deals with farmers at the road end. But, there was some very strong mentors in my life, like Tony Newton and Ray Forsyth at Forest Service. They were always telling us of new hearts that they're built or, one thing I actually, I, with my mom we walked the three paths and I came into Harman heart over coming over the Brownings Pass and. I saw these two guys with keys to the forestry cupboard and I said, what are you doing? One was a color, a guy, Ray Henderson. And one was a forestry guy a guy Don Reed. And I just said, at that moment, I think I was only 14. I said, that's what I wanna be when I grow up. Because they had the keys to the forestry carpet. And that's what really influenced my career is how do I get a job that I don't have to carry these heavy packs around and I can eat out the food outta the forestry carpet. So that was my ambition to, to have an environment, a life, a work job that actually enabled that.

Jonty 4:41

You're pretty successful in that

Lou 4:42

yeah, at the age of 15 I started track cutting for Western National Park and up Copeland. Cut all the tracks up to Misty Peak and places like that around France and Fox. And there was just nothing more satisfying than going out in the morning and cutting the track and seeing what you'd done during the day. And so from track cutting, I went into forest service and then I did a whole lot of benching of tracks and enabled tasmine. Yeah. It was just, how do I actually turn this love into a career?

Jonty 5:12

What are some of the most memorable tramping experiences? Were they in your kind of work environment or your kind of personal trips you've done out in the bush?

Lou 5:18

Oh probably when I was 15, the longest trip we did comes over to the Lyle Glass here and back. It was probably a 10 day trip and we were making camp oven and bread outta the forest service flour. It was in the huts and shooting the first deer up the mgo. And they were just magic times. And then being in the Copeland and, being paid. To be track cutting in the Copeland and coming back to those hot pools every night. It was just, all the tramps were memorable. Probably the hardest was getting up to Ivory Lake and slugging our way up the wider hard gorge and from Ivory Lake over, into the adjoining valleys and out. We're only 15, and we were away for a week at a time. And our parents just trusted us. I think we got dropped off at RA and I got dropped off at Gorge one day, that one Easter, and it just poured the whole Easter. And I remember my mother just so worried about how high the rivers were and we slugged away. Shut down a couple of rivers. Managed to find our feet and shot a deer. I've had a few close scrapes. Probably the closest one was ski touring, above, like tepo, in a southerly coming in. I also had a bad one on the Auckland Islands where Andres and Abs and I had decided to walk the entire priest of the Auckland Islands. And we got off from Carley Harbor, got dropped off and got up to the tops and the storm came in and there was thunder and lightning out at sea, and it was just blowing so hard we could lean into it. I picked out the tent. I said, Andy, you got the 10. And he says, getting, I had a little radio on and I knew my wife or girlfriend at the time was, at the U2 concert in Christchurch, I think it was 1989. And, I just remember cuddling Andy all night to stay warm. There was thunder, lightning, hail, it was just water everywhere. And I don't think he's ever, let me forget, I forgot the frigging temp poles. You still traveling together? No. We, Andy's close to 80 now and I'm getting close to 70. So we've done an awful lot together. A lot of really remote stuff in f Aland and he's been such a good buddy and I just feel so privileged that he took me on so many of his photographic missions.

Jonty 7:29

So most of your tramping trips have been with groups or have you done solo work or what's your preference

Lou 7:34

I've done a lot of both. I've set myself an ambition my whole life. On the longest day of the year, I'm somewhere spectacular in the mountains, and a lot of that's on my own. Just, 21st of December, I try and climb a mountain and just sleep up there and watch the sunset and the sunrise. It's really spiritual. I just, I've got this thing about the longest day of the year, probably the best one I took. All the aka uh, when I was a conservative Southland to the top of Mount Nui on the longest day of the year, and we had a Christmas party up on top of Nui with about 10 Nhu friends from the four AKA down there. Because Hannah NOI is such a key part of, of ion. Just be up there and watching a roar and listen to the wind blowing through the tass and seeing the sunset and the sunrise on the longest day of the year is just incredible.

Jonty 8:27

Where would you say your heart is is there some area you particularly relate to or return to?

Lou 8:32

I guess my hearts in the mountains behind Hoka. Um. That's where I grew up, but I've developed a huge attraction to Phil and aspiring and Southwest and, I'm spending a lot of time on Stewart Island and, yeah, no, it's just that whole southwest world heritage area is just one of the most places in the world.

Jonty 8:52

And how have you seen it change or not change over your lifetime of tramping there?

Lou 8:56

On my watch, no is gonna be removed. And I played a key role in funding the back country trust to take on the role that the Forest Service and Lanson survey, used to do. To see those beautiful tracks behind Hoka Teko and the Hudson Mint condition. And when I became in charge of the whole outfit. Everything had declined, it was a great mate of mine, Andrew Bugles, who started the whole system. And I just thought, if I'm gonna invest in one organization as D Doc, it's gonna be the back country trust. And I gave them half a million bucks. And really they've proven it. And the hearts and tracks are now back to something of their former glory and some places even look better.

Jonty 9:38

Is there gonna be a limit to how much, support we can rely on volunteers to deliver? They're doing an amazing job, how sustainable is that versus doc.

Lou 9:47

I think the Back Country Trust model and the work we're seeing the Deer Stalk is doing now and some of the tramping clubs is incredible. There's only 960 huts, how they've done 300, I think it's sustainable I know with having managed Dock, a lot of staff. I think, I think it's a balance. I just think it's a unique model that we've found that's gonna be with us forever. And to restore these huts that are now 50 or 60 years old, will never replace them. I just think it's one of the most treasured things about being a kiwi. It's just having this network of gorgeous spots with a vivy or a four bunk hut. I think the model's sustainable.

Jonty 10:30

It's been apparent over recent years that trade off between the tourism or travel experience versus more purist, tramping in the bank country. If you've got any thoughts on that model and how you balance the commerciality side

Lou 10:43

yeah, and I think Instagram has really created that. And when you look at Brewster Hart and the Mount Brown Hart and all these huts that you just felt, you could wander up and grab a bed and no longer there's a bed there and having to go to the booking system. But, I just think it's fantastic that so many people are falling in love with their backcountry, and if Mount Bruta Hut has become one of our biggest backcountry hut tourist attractions, I think that's wonderful. I'll go up the Maro and that be nobody there. And I always know whether there's a hut where there's nobody and. It's a shame about Mount Brown Hut that it now needs a booking system. But yeah, Newton Bivy is just three hours along the ridge and it's just as good.

Jonty 11:22

And if people are using the huts, then that encourages the trap to continue to be maintained and the track facilities to be there. And as you say, there's 900 million thousand huts. There's plenty of huts out there. If the summer getting too busy. I was reflecting on you going to ivory Lake. When you went there. It'd probably be unknown now. It's this kind of very well known Ivory Lake. It's the big kind of go-to destination for extreme tramping,

Lou 11:45

yeah, when we went there, it had a boat. We used to go out boating. We've got photos of us jumping around on the icebergs. It was really Trevor Chin, it was just so fabulous to get in there and experience the place. But yeah, it's become one of the destinations. I just visited Mount Irene Hut and that was another really remote, but just a spectacular place to be in. Remote huts, they'll always attract a unique group of people. They're like the bucket list place to

Jonty 12:09

go I think you just did a cruise around all 14 of the fjords. And so were you able to access some of the huts from the water on that trip?

Lou 12:17

Yeah, I was, and and places like DS Co. But I guess the one that really stood out for me was Caswell Hu, which was set there up by the United States Property Expedition. And that's really where AP Thompson, who became Director General Forest, had the vision to create the New Zealand Forest Survey, and also to lobby the government to take over dear control from Department of Internal Affairs. Create these 600 backcountry hearts. So to me, to see that hutton, it needs work urgently. But the genesis of what AP AP Thompson was a director of botany, quite a famous climber. And he just had the genesis of a whole new way of thinking about New Zealand through protected area forestry. And he created this asset through his lobbying of government to build all these huts for deer control. So I'd love to see Caswell Hut restored a reflection of, in this heart, all this. This started to happen.

Jonty 13:14

Such an amazing legacy to leave behind and to all the hundreds of thousands of millions of people who have been able to, enjoy the backcountry because of the network. I'm interested in, your wildlife encounters. Have you had any particular wildlife encounters that, stick in your mind either in mainland New Zealand? I know if you go down to sub Antarctic, you will have seen some amazing things down there.

Lou 13:34

Yeah, I guess Kias I just, I had know 'em in the mountains when I got Kias. But then, city pmu and rocks, they're pretty special. But in the subs it's definitely the albatros and just to be alone on one of those ridges with an albatros sort of colony of albatross. So it's a toss up between Kia and Albatros. Somehow I think Kia win because it's just, you're an Alpine, you know you're on your own or you're with one or two other people in your real company. See Kia, funny thing was when I left Dock I said I'm gonna do a, I'm gonna get a new pack, new Parker, new tent, everything. My first trip up, cascade, saddle, everything. You know, I got a state of the Art Parker and Tent and Pack. The key, get in and rip everything, and they find my jet planes, the bloody jet pans. I've strewn everywhere, all the scroggins gone, but every one of my new bits of gear is destroyed or bloody, got holes through it. So key is revenge.

Jonty 14:34

I was gonna ask if you have any favorite pieces of gear, but I guess particularly with the lightweight gear you get these days, they're not key proof. The old canvas packs add a little bit more structure to them,

Lou 14:43

my favorite piece of gear really was when I was, a youth and we tried to mirror what the forest Service hunters did, which was, we got buller gum boots and we put horseshoes on them. And boy, we thought we were cool having buller gum boots with horseshoes, and I remember putting the bloody horseshoes onto the boots and the nails coming right through, once you could go up a riverbed and you felt like you were in high heeled shoes clicking up a riverbed, you thought you were pretty cool

Jonty 15:10

Especially for West Coast Rivers, that's kinda the perfect piece of kit.

Lou 15:13

Yeah. But your feet kept on rotting in them. That was the problem

Jonty 15:16

So there is a reason why Gore-Tex is a bit more popular. Yeah. And then what do you eat when you're at Tramping? Are you a foodie or you just need the fuel to keep going?

Lou 15:25

I'm a foodie and I'll take the very best food I can. I'm known for taking a can of baked beans if I'm going on my own, but I'll generally take steak or sausages or chicken. I'm not a DHI person. And even on those big trips, we always, made fabulous food and I learned to cook in the mountains and, yeah, but never dehi.

Jonty 15:44

So how heavy is your pack? Must be a few kgs heavier than the others.

Lou 15:47

Oh, when? When I was young though, the packs were, I don't know, 20, 25 kilo now. Now I max out at 15 and try and do 10.

Jonty 15:56

Especially the knees. Yeah, things get harder as you get about, yeah. And there obviously you, I dunno who is responsible, one of you is responsible for forgetting the tent pegs. But are there any other essential items that you've forgotten whilst that tramping that you had to improvise a solution?

Lou 16:11

Yeah, there was a bloody embarrassing moment. We flew into Be Saddle and Ski, toured across, aspiring and over into the head of the, and there was a bit of a mix up with the helicopters, when we got and we walked out and I got into Colin Todd. I think I said to somebody, did anybody get my Parker out the other car? And the other guy said, no, I think it's in the, still in the boat. No, I'm up on crossing the bone with No Parker. But I managed it was a bit of a blizzard and we had a remarkable woman, Jacinda Amy who did the shark attack rescue on Campbell Island. And we just, she was bloody good with a GPS and here was me whistling across in a plastic bag. But yeah, it was embarrassing, but we we through it. But the moral of the story is when there's two helicopters and you make sure you got everything, don't rely on somebody else.

Jonty 17:07

That's when tramping solo is some ways easier 'cause you just rely on yourself. There's no misunderstanding.

Lou 17:12

I think there was about six of us and yeah, I was in charge of the food and making sure the food and everything got on the right helicopter and left Parker.

Jonty 17:22

So have you made any kind of unexpected friendships whilst tramping, like people you've met on the track

Lou 17:28

oh yeah. I've always meeting fascinating people and I'm the dusky recently, I. Met a couple who, um, own an amazing vineyard in Gisborne, and you just meet incredible people and, some of them become friends, some of 'em become acquaintances. You push Facebook, you follow them. I just love seeing. Country Hus and hunting and, and ing those social media sites, to me they just, they're a thrilled to sit and look at them and think, ah, that's where I wanna go next.

Jonty 17:59

Have you ever been onto the Hut Bagger website and worked out how many huts you've backed?

Lou 18:04

Yeah, I had a go and that was one of my goals when I stopped being dg I would whack another 50 huts on. I've probably done another 20, not 50, I think I've done about 400, but nothing like some of the people that are on that list.

Jonty 18:18

It's quite crazy. It became, more of a gamification as well. So in the old days it was a bit harder to keep track, but now there's, you know how many you've been to and these ones you need to go to. And, people do special tramps just to see how many kind of huts they can bag in one trip. Presumably in the old days you had your compass and you had your map. How do you navigate these days when you tramp?

Lou 18:36

Oh, it is amazing having Topo GPS and yeah, no, everything's changed and you can see the distance, the time to the next hunt. Everything's changed with cell phones, but, before it was just maps and we became really good at reading maps. We used to use aerial photos, Tony Newton and Forest Service. Photos and we'd get copies of them done.

Jonty 18:57

You had your own version of Google Maps with aerial photos.

Lou 19:00

Yeah, we did. We used to laminate these black and white photos taken by, I can't remember the company that did it and, work out ridges and where we could go and yeah, it was pre maps. All right.

Jonty 19:10

I can tell from your Facebook pages you're well traveled, you've hiked obviously lots here in New Zealand and overseas. Are there things that you've seen overseas that you think we could be doing in New Zealand that you think is good practice?

Lou 19:20

I spend, every year in Patagonia and I saw what they did with differential hub fees over there and I bought that back. I like what they're doing with entry fees, which is, for me to go into Losier's National Park and. Argentina, or Fitzroy is 60 bucks. If I'm an Argentian national, it's 30, and if I'm from the province it's 15. I just think, and they've got a really simple system. You've just gotta give you address and postcode. And if you stumble on that, they charge you full. So they've got some pretty good systems. The huts and their tracks are probably not as good as New Zealand. I

Jonty 19:58

remember the toilet

Lou 19:58

facilities being pretty basic. Yeah. The toilet facilities, you know the country that's absolutely nailed it for tracks and facilities is newer. It's just, they're all short walks, but boy, they've done a good job. They've got great interpretation. They've got showers, they've got toilets. It's a whole step up from New Zealand. But what a master stroke of how they've treated their track system to be part of the key visitor attraction for eye. But yeah, I guess in Nepal it's the tea houses, which is, we just don't have that in New Zealand, going up to Everest base camp or around, and staying in tea houses. And so it's quite a different form of tramping. But my love affair is really when Patagonia and those, just, those extreme mountain landscapes and just taking a tent and sleeping in some of the most attractive country in the world.

Jonty 20:48

Is there a work connection there or you just love the landscape and so you keep returning?

Lou 20:52

Yeah. I lecture on the cruise ships in Antarctica, and so the work connection is, I'm on the way there and I always pop into Fitzroy or to Pine or, Tego National Park. So yeah, no, it's very cool just being able to go hiking in Patagonia every year.

Jonty 21:08

I've done some of those hikes and I can appreciate the attraction of the landscapes, although I think that the weather in New Zealand's pretty variable, but I found in Patagonia it was even more variable in terms of kind of four seasons of some of the extremes that you could get.

Lou 21:20

Yeah, the winds are extreme, aren't they?

Jonty 21:22

and those things you've seen overseas that you hope don't come here?

Lou 21:26

I think, I've done a bit of hiking around the Dolomites two years ago. Yeah, I'm not sure those big alpine lodges are really what we wanna see in New Zealand. They're very nice, but, you can go in and get a beer and a toaster sandwich and things like that. I dunno if we need that type of hiking in New Zealand, but, it's quite nice when you're there, but I think it just brings too many facilities in. So yeah, I'd rather take a bit of food and cook it myself and have a beer when I get out.

Jonty 21:54

I think that's one of the appeals. To me, the New Zealand landscape is that wilderness feeling and the fact you are out and you can't see anything that's manmade other than some huts and some bridges. You're looking at a landscape which is, yeah, it has potentially be modified, but a lot less modified than certainly the Alps and a lot of other places in the world where you can see the impact of humans wherever you look.

Lou 22:13

Yeah. And you're away from. Cell phone reception and wifi and things like that's pretty special when you come out and four or five days later and think, oh, that's happened. But I guess that's gonna change all now with the, the new, um, one relationship with doc.

Jonty 22:28

Yeah. It'd be interesting how that plays out. I remember even being on Tom years ago, and I think it was close to one of the ski field, so there was mobile reception and somebody answered their phone in a hut and I was just. It was just completely outta place. I was not expecting that. I was quite like, this is not why we're traveling for people to be speaking on a mobile phone in the hut. It was quite yeah, a bit of a shock.

Lou 22:46

Yeah.

Jonty 22:47

So where do you get your inspiration for future trips?

Lou 22:50

I probably get it from the hus and tracks and just. A gorgeous photo, people tell me about spots and I've got a bucket list at the moment, which was the Freeman Burn and Fjord. And because John Hall Jones was a good mate of mine, I asked him what was the most beautiful place in Fjord and he said, you up the Freeman Burn and down to the south arm of Tiana. He says, it's just the most stunning place, sir. Freeman Burns pretty high on my bucket list. I wanna get back up to French Ridge. I haven't been there for a while. I always love Cascade Saddle and probably one of my favorite huts in New Zealand is Lake Row on the Dusky Track, and I just really want go back in there.

Jonty 23:28

So is the bucket list getting smaller or larger with retirement?

Lou 23:32

It always exists and just lately I've started spotting some incredible little ies around mein and I I still haven't been up to a thousand acre plateau, so

Jonty 23:40

Oh, that's beautiful. You pick the right time, very muddy. But if you get it in the dry season, it's pretty special.

Lou 23:45

Yeah, so I've got a good mate, Reese Buckingham who, I've done a lot of hiking with and wandered around f Aland and Southern Stewart Island with the cargo boating. And Reese is what, 75 now? He's fit as a buck rat, but, he and I always got a plan to do some more stuff

Jonty 24:01

always good to have future plans. And it sounds like your life is basically revolved around tramping from kind of early years and then your career. So one of my questions was about how tramping has changed you, but it's probably quite hard to express that because you've been doing it for so long.

Lou 24:15

Yeah it's been pretty special to me. I can't take as big a packs, I'm not as fit as I was and my knees hurt and take a bit of vol tarn to get down hills but it still makes my heart flutter. And when you think, oh, I just wanna go to that bivy or that heart or that peak, up five years ago, I just used to go and climb a peak from the lake and spend all day doing it. But your knees start to get a bit, tougher on the down. It's alright. Going up. It's harder coming down.

Jonty 24:40

Use poles.

Lou 24:41

Yeah, no I had an injury. I was hiking with Logan, the previous dg, a guy Chris Eden, and I fell through a snow bridge and it cracked my knee and it was incredibly painful. And the orthopedic surgeon that helped me said, use poles and you'll get another 10 years out of those knees. So I, since that incident, I've always used poles.

Jonty 25:02

Now have you passed this love of tramping onto your family, to your children? Yeah.

Lou 25:05

No, I know my two daughters, Georgia and I've been doing a lot of hiking and Patagonia with both of them. Yeah. And yeah, we just have some of the best times just in a tent and. Waves getting lifted off one of the lakes at um, Dale Piney.

Jonty 25:31

Do you think they have a different, approach to tramping, or perspective on it? I'm thinking about the social media and the generational change to when you started out.

Lou 25:40

Yeah, they've got a lot different approach. They damn site fitter than I'm, and they say I slow them down. My daughter's an artist, George's an artist and she's just so cool at taking the photos I do and putting them into art. So she gets this exactly the same inspiration that I they both do. As does my wife g and she, she loves it too. Mind you, she likes flat stuff. They like going up hills.

Jonty 26:02

So you've got your bucket list sorted out. You're heading away this summer back to South America.

Lou 26:07

Yep. Yeah, no, I'll be back lecturing in Antarctica. Yeah, no. I'll find another mission. I think we're all going ski touring up the centennial uh, hut in November. We go ski touring in the Alps now in November because it's warm and sunny. The huts are warm and you can sit and have a gin and tonic and watch the sunset over the Tasman sea. And it's not freezing like July and August. So we've shifted our ski touring trips to November. And there's enough snow. Yeah. The snow's generally bloody beautiful. Some of the best snow we've ever had is November. It's like spring corn.

Jonty 26:40

And have you thought about yet where you're gonna be on the longest day this year?

Lou 26:44

It'll be somewhere on a little peak around, somewhere around uh, aka where I live now. But yeah, I'll find a spot and it's just a tradition that I've had for. Nearly 30 years now is to be somewhere special on the longest day.

Jonty 26:57

Thank you so much, Lou. Really appreciate your time and your passion and your contribution to, making a lot of this possible for so many fellow New Zealanders to really enjoy the back country and this amazing things this country can offer.

Lou 27:09

Yeah, no, it's been pretty special. And one of the first things I did after finning at DG has volunteered for Back Country Trust. We went and painted East Rdy Hut and I think I'm going into paint the MGO Hut, this summer. So just a shout out to Rob Brown and Kevin oconnor, who chairs the Back Country Trust and Megan, they just do an incredible job. Back country is in pretty good shape with the partnership between the Backcountry Trust and Department of Conservation and really Andrew Bugles from Per who's created it all.

Jonty 27:40

It's amazing how a relatively small number of people can have such a outsized impact.

Lou 27:45

Oh yeah. It's such a treasure part of New Zealand. Just to see New Zealanders out there doing it.

Jonty 27:50

Thank you so much for your time and uh, hope you have a good day.

Lou 27:53

Thanks, John. Great to catch up.

Speaker 27:57

Thank you so much for listening to the Tramping life. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please follow the podcast in whatever app you use. Tell a friend about it and consider leaving a rating or a review. It really helps more people discover the show. you have any questions or feedback, I'd love to hear from you. Drop me an email at the tramping life, one word@gmail.com.